I think the biggest influencers have been talking about houses and apartment buildings for the longest time, and so that’s why a lot of people are in those asset classes. Frankly, I’m not this guy that is like an Elon Musk or even remotely close to that. The reason why I like land is it’s simple, it’s scalable and it’s sustainable. The emphasis is on scalable land is in a liquid asset class. If you purchase the wrong piece of land, it does not sell and your margins end up going from 50 or 40 to 50 to about 70. A lot of people are happy with that business. There’s a very low return on brain damage success to me, I rip this mercilessly from Naval Akan is getting what you want out of life. The competition is just, it’s so different. It’s so different and so I learned every time I went to this mastermind, I learned so much and I just

Clay, thank you so much for coming on. I know you’re doing land deals all over the country, but I’m just curious to how you got into real estate in the first place.

So I originally got into real estate through the BiggerPockets podcast pipeline as well as Grand Cardone. I remember I got into sales and I actually dropped out of college and joined a chocolate company is in sales in a sales position, and through that I learned about Grand Cardone, read all of his books. Through that I learned about real estate. Then through that I learned about BiggerPockets and eventually left the chocolate company, went and joined a local company in my city that the guy was doing a bunch of apartment buildings, owned a couple hundred units, was kind of a successful guy, just bought a bunch of real estate and so I learned about real estate through him, learned about it through wholesaling. I actually built and scaled his wholesaling business. We did 75 deals in our first year. I started to buy my own real estate, bought a three unit, another three units, six unit, then bought 65 units that next year and it kind of scaled from there.

Started realizing that rental properties weren’t what I originally anticipated in the pro forma, right. You’re laughing as many listeners are probably thinking all the numbers that BiggerPockets told us were dated, right? It’s not their fault. I think Brandon Turner and those guys really had a clear understanding of real estate back then, but real estate changed and I was buying rental properties that were super old, 1900 build 1920 build in Pittsburgh. They cashflow on paper, but in reality they didn’t really cashflow. So 2022 I started to realize that I had an Airbnb, I had investments across a bunch of different properties and the old CapEx, the sewer lines, the roofs, the single pane windows they started adding up man. And so every month I get the cashflow and then have to allocate it towards repairs and I also bought an Airbnb right next to Rocky Mountain National Park and my wife at this whole time, she had a job.

She had a job that was well-paying job and we basically lived off that and I was doing the entrepreneurial thing, which is put all the money back into the business and she lost her job the day before Thanksgiving three years ago and we have the anniversary, the Thanksgiving anniversary every year day before Thanksgiving, my wife and I, when she lost her job and man, I really quickly realized I needed to produce income and so at that point we thought we were going to have to move to Colorado. We were planning on moving to Colorado, wanted to live in the house that we had next to Rocky Mountain National Park. That ended up not working out, but I found land because I needed to make money. I was choosing land or something online that I could produce a lot of income and I realized it was this incredible blue ocean that still is way less competitive than standard house wholesaling or flipping. And so yeah, man, that’s how I got into the land space and three years later I started with 30,000 in the bank and I say, Hey, $30,000 to $3 million within three years of gross profit top line in 2020 this year. And we changed and scaled very quickly in this business, but that was a result of the mechanics of the business. I’m not some genius. I mean anyone could do it, but yeah, man, that’s the high level of how I got into the landscaping business and land development.

Awesome. And what’s your business look like now? I know you’re doing a bunch of in different states, I’m assuming it’s mostly virtual, but what does your business look like today?

My business is completely virtual. We have about 16 team members at this point and we basically have three core pillars of our business. The first pillar is a standard rural recreational flip, right? This is buy for 40, sell for a hundred thousand, buy for 40, sell for 80. These deals happen all the time and they’re incredibly lucrative and profitable. That’s how I got into the business and we still have a section of our business that does that. The next section of our business is development. So think about going out and buying a hundred, 200, 300 acre track, cutting it up into smaller deals and developing those, whether that’s through changing the zoning, but we’re buying a property right now, buying it for 7 25. We should exit it around $1.6 million. We’re buying another commercial track in Dallas for 2 55. We’re listing it currently for 855,000. There’s a little bit of development component to those, but those are really nice deals.

The last part of our business is funding, so we come in as a expert consultant and JV funder for people that are looking for help in whether it’s doing a standard flip like the buy for 40 sell for 80, we provide expertise to help them execute those flips as well as all of the funding. We do a hundred percent of financing, so we come in pay for everything, survey per test, everything else that you need to do to prep the land as well as the purchase price and the closing costs, and then we split the profits on the back end. Those are the three core sections of our business and how we do this.

That’s awesome. Why do you think so many investors overlook land?

I think that if we just slice up the pie of all the available investors in United States that could potentially invest in land, a lot of people originally get into real estate through the retail route, which is flipping houses because it’s super known. And I just think that land has always been this kind of untouched asset class that people is not as tangible as houses. You can walk into a house, you see the HGTV flips. You see the biggest real estate influencers like Pace Morby or Jamil Dany or the guys out in Phoenix, the Grand Cardones, they talk about houses and apartment buildings. And so I think the biggest influencers have been talking about houses and apartment buildings for the longest time, and so that’s why a lot of people are in those asset classes. That’s my belief. It just hasn’t gotten, it’s kind of the boring asset class, like mobile home parks were 10 years ago and RV parks were five years ago. I think land is now getting its day and it’s still a blue ocean right now. There’s not a lot of competition in the land space, which is what makes it so attractive. But I think that people start to realize the opportunity it’s going to get more and more competitive as any market does, but right now it’ss a really great time to get into it,

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I love the story of your wife losing the job and you realizing, oh shit, I need to start producing income. Take us through that journey from starting in that space and putting everything back into the business and then realizing like, oh, I need to provide for a family from there till now. Walk us through that because I feel like a lot of people might be stuck where you were kind of explain that and how you got to where you are now.

Yeah, and I would say, like I said at the beginning, this is not, I’m not special. I’m not some genius. I had some experience in wholesaling and house slipping or rental properties, but frankly, I’m not this guy that is like an Elon Musk or even remotely close to that. The reason why I like land is it’s simple, it’s scalable and it’s sustainable. The emphasis is on scalable in house flipping or rental properties. It’s very difficult to go from, Hey, I’m flipping a house for 20 K, 30 KA deal to getting a deal that I might make 150 k or the deal that I talked about in Dallas that we’re buying it for 2 55, we have it listed for 8 55, we might make a half a million dollars on that deal, right? One deal that can literally change someone’s trajectory completely. And so I believe the only reason why I was able to do, I mean obviously there was hard work and I really made it happen, but land has this incredible ability to, you talk to the right person at the right time, you can do a six or seven figure deal, and it doesn’t take any more type of complex underwriting than if you were to just buy something like an info lot, right?

Unless you’re truly developing or reclassifying a piece of land, it’s not that much more difficult. So that’s why I think I was able to do it, to be honest with you. It was just a vehicle. When I got into land, I heard this story about Warren Buffet and Warren Buffet was, someone asked him, Hey, how are you so successful? And he was giving an example of when he left Columbia Business School. He had a guy, one of his dear friends who was very, very smart actually. He said that was smarter than he was, but this friend of his decided to go into the steel industry in America during a time period where it was getting completely hollowed out. This is sixties, seventies. I’m from Pittsburgh, so I know this personally. Pittsburgh people left Pittsburgh in droves because the entire American steel industry was hollowed out.

It doesn’t matter how smart you are, it doesn’t matter how accomplished you are. It doesn’t matter how hard you work. If you’re in a boat that you’re going against the current man, you’re screwed. And so Buffet says the best thing to do is to find the right boat. And so when you’re in a real estate asset class, you want to find the best boat if you want to build wealth. Building wealth with single family homes is a 20 to 30 year thing building wealth. With an apartment building, maybe it’s 10 years, maybe it’s a little less building wealth with development deals and land deals, you can create 500,000 million dollars, 2 million of value really quickly. One of the guys that I worked with is working on this deal. He’s buying it for $4.7 million and he’s selling it for $7.2 million. He’s raising capital and he’s probably going to net $2 million.

Now, this is a student that worked directly with me and he’s raising money for the majority of the equity, majority of the capital. He’s the guy that puts some of his money at risk, but he’s making 2 million bucks off this deal. He’s selling it to Lennar, so he’s entitling to track and selling it to Lennar and they’re going to build out and it’s going to be worth 45 million after they’re done with it, but he’s making 2 million bucks. What other business can you do that and make that amount of money that quickly, 12 to 18 months? And so that’s I think is the real reason why I was able to scale quickly. I just chose the right vehicle and it wasn’t about, I don’t know if I could have done what it did if I was in the house flipping business, to be honest with you.

What do you think the biggest misconception is about land when you talk to someone that is primarily doing house flipping?

Yeah, I think the two big ones that come to mind is who is the buyer? Who’s going to buy a piece of land, and then how do you underwrite it? I think those are the two big tripping up points. So who’s the buyer? It really depends on the area that you are targeting, but our business model, the way we do it is we acquire rural recreational land in areas that have a very high sell-through rate. So there’s a lot of velocity, there’s a lot of turnover, unlike a lot of other people. I believe that a lot of land gurus will say, well, you can buy land and sell land wherever. It’s like, actually that’s not true, right? Land is in a liquid asset class. If you purchase the wrong piece of land, it does not sell. And we were looking at a piece of land, actually northeastern Columbia, it was a commercial parcel.

We were about to close on it, and I looked at it and I’m like, the comps or there’s a comp on the market for eight years, Noah, another one on the market for four years, and I made a decision, I’m going to eat the earnest money. We made a mistake on this deal. It’s going to go hard. We’re going to pay the seller because frankly, I don’t want a piece of land to sit on the market for four years. So it is illiquid if you buy the wrong piece of land, but if you find the right land in the right county, in the right area, it will sell very quickly. I was just looking at a deal that we did earlier this year in middle Tennessee, right south of Nashville. We bought it for 225,000. We sold it for $430,000 in 14 days, and it was the right piece of land in the right area with the right buyer pool.

And so land is incredibly liquid, especially in the right areas, and as well as I do after COVID, people are wanting to get out of cities. There’s an amazing, amazing opportunity for investing in land over the next five to 10 years. Everyone’s talking about ’em, getting all these Instagram ads about people talking about ai, automation agencies are the newest and best opportunities. And I said, yeah, there are opportunities in every part of our economy, but there’s one huge wave in AI in the people that want to become a part of the cloud, that want to become AI infused the crazy things that people are talking about in five to 10 years. Then there’s the whole other movement of people that want to move out of cities. They want to touch dirt, they want to be like the old America. I think that’s a big reason why there’s a huge political movement about this.

And so we as land investors can work with the trends, know what’s going on in America, and so if we can be the brokers and the dealers of these opportunities, man, there’s so much opportunity there. So you can either go the AI route or you can go the other huge people talk about the silver tsunami. Well, the silver tsunami happens to be in land too. Most of the people that we work with are a bunch of old landowners. So what we do is we find these old landowners, we purchase their properties, we end up selling them to other people like you and me and our age that want to start young families and move out of the big cities. And then you said number two, what’s the other misconception? The other misconceptions around underwriting the land land is not that easy to underwrite depending on the type of land that you’re looking at.

Now, if you have a system and a process to underwrite it, it becomes much easier, but it’s not like a house. You can look, everyone knows the guy that’s your neighbor down the street that says, well, my house sold for this, so this house should sell for this, right? But in houses, it’s much easier. A three bed, one bath ranch that’s 1200 square feet and the same neighborhood is going to sell pretty close to the same square footage, dollar per square foot with land. There’s a little bit of nuance, but it’s all about building the system. So I think on the surface, if you’re just learning from the outside, it can be intimidating and underwriting parcels of land, but if you’ve got the right system and process, it becomes much easier. We created internally for our clients, say the A PCP formula, which is basically a formula that you could use to comp every parcel of land, so it stands for acreage, proximity, characteristics, price, and so you go down that list, you focus on the acreage, make sure it’s the same acreage band that you’re looking at. Proximity, we all know location is everything in real estate characteristics. Is it buildable? Is there slope? Are there wetlands? Is there fema, floodplains, and some other characteristics? And then price, confirmation of price through a local expert. If you just follow that quick acronym, you’ll be way ahead of your competition and be able to underwrite land very quickly. That’s awesome.

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So everything is off market. Everything is off market, and we use a series of data platforms in order to pull records. We scrub them based on a series of filters like, Hey, how long has this person owned it? Just like in the house wholesaling world, is there high equity? Is there any distress indicators? How old are they? What’s their demographic data? And then we target them specifically using a lot of what you’ve talked about. I’d be interested in learning about tv. The problem with our businesses, we’re in so many different markets that we’re all over the place that it’s all rural tv, so it would be pretty hard to be able to blanket a specific area for land because again, it’s not like a big city. If you put TV in a big city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, right, you’re going to get a bunch of different houses. But if you’re in a county with 30,000 people, which is a lot of what we target, it’s pretty hard to reach the critical mass audience that you’re looking for

When it comes to, we had one guy do TV for land, and he kind of just hopped around a couple different markets and just every time he bought up all the land in each market, he would just switch to another one, which was pretty interesting. But what are some of the main strategies that you are using and seeing in land that might be a little bit different than the traditional house flipping?

Well, here’s what I will say. Land investing is about 10 years behind house flipping. I remember I joined one of the top real estate investing masterminds and two years ago, and I was shocked by what some of these wholesalers were doing. I actually came from the wholesaler world and the house slipping world, but man, if you are a house slipper or a wholesaler and you go into land business, you’re going to be like, these guys are in the stone age, they’re in the stone age. It’s not like we’re doing anything differently. Direct mail, outbound marketing, cold calling, a lot of other standard marketing practices, PPC, not television, but dude, the competition is just, it’s so different. It’s so different. And so I learned every time I went to this mastermind, I learned so much and I just blew up my competition because it’s just so far behind.

It’s like five to 10 years behind what the house wholesaling world is still. So I wouldn’t say we’re doing anything differently. I think the only thing that pops into my mind is anytime we look at a parcel in our business, we always look for the highest and best use. And for a house wholesaler, the highest and best use might just be wholesaling it or flipping it. There’s not other exit strategies, but with land, you can lease it, you can owner finance it, you can rezone it, you can cut it up and subdivide it. You can parcel part of it. You can buy a house in what people call survey hacking. You can buy a house and cut up certain house is on 20 acres, you can sell the house back to them or just have them keep the house and then you just buy a percentage of their land.

(20:06)
There’s so many different things that you can do. You can throw on mobile homes on a lot and develop and flip mobile homes, which is actually super profitable. You can throw on RVs, you can build an RV park, you can develop, there’s so many different things you can do with land that you can’t actually do with houses. So I think that that’s the flexibility of the exit strategies there. But in terms of marketing and innovation and technology, dude, the house wholesaling world is five to 10 years ahead of the land world, which is why if you’re really good at wholesaling, the transference is so easy.

Interesting because with house flippers, obviously there’s a lot of onesie, twosies, and then there’s a lot of people that are doing a lot of deals per month. Do you see that in the land world where there’s a bunch of people that are kind of doing a onesie twosie, they’ll do one or two a year, and if so, what separates those people from the top operators doing multiple, multiple deals a month?

So we broke down the five stages of a land investor into a scaling roadmap that we call the land ladder. Now, I can give this to you. So when you release the podcast episode, your listeners can have access to this, but it’s a free scaling roadmap to go from anything from beginner to a professional investor. So we have beginner hustler, operator, architect, and developer. Now, most land investors are between beginner to operator stage, so they might be doing anywhere between one deal every month, one deal every other month to three deals per month. There is not a lot of consolidation of true investors. Hey, I’m doing 10 to 15 deals a month. So we were in that range, and what we realized was the perfect land business is does anywhere between a half a million dollars to 1.5 million per year with 50% margins between four to about eight to 10 people on your payroll.

So you’re clearing quarter million bucks to three quarters of a million bucks, and then you layer on development opportunities. So you have your core business model, which you’re flipping maybe four to six deals per month. It’s not a lot of operational drag, and you’re consistent with that. So maybe you’re doing 30 to 50 deals a year. Nothing crazy that one transaction coordinator can manage. So you have really good people in the right seats, and then you layer on, Hey, I’m going to do a $500,000 development deal every quarter. So you end up netting two, three, 4 million bucks and your margins end up going from 50 or 40 to 50 to about 70. A lot of people are happy with that business. There’s a very low return on brain damage, whereas if you’re in the house flipping world, if you want to scale to those numbers, you got to have three acquisition managers, you got to have five lead managers, you got to have two transaction coordinators.

You got to be sending out your payroll’s a hundred to 200 KA month. It gets to be an absolute nightmare. And so I think that the ideal land businesses at that level, and again, the reason why I love land so much is because you can layer on those subdivided opportunities, the opportunities to maybe buy a mobile home park or an RV park, which we’re targeting right now. You buy these RV parks or mobile home parks and we absorb them into our portfolio. I’m literally looking for those right now because it’s pretty much the same thing. It’s not that big of a difference, and we mail them and maybe they’ll sell us a parcel of their land. So we do a lot of different stuff with land investing. I can target houses with excess acreage. I could target RV parks, I can target mobile home parks, I can target infill lots and I can put mobile homes on them and flip them and make a hundred, 200 KA pop. I can just do rural recreational land where I can cut some of it up and keep it. One of my plans is to buy a big parcel land in northeastern Tennessee and have a little homestead in that area eventually if I can convince my wife to do it.

But again, the reason why I love this so much is because you can get that ideal model and then from there you layer on so you can pay for your life. You can have a really high return on hassle, which you have low hassle and a high return on your time, which dude, anyone’s going to be happy with taking home a million bucks a year of net income with not having to blow your brains out because it’s so stressful. And I know that because I was in that seat and I had to tear down my land business and rebuild it, and that’s how we came up with the land ladder.

That’s awesome. When it comes to the word success, everyone’s got their own definition for it. Everyone’s got their own way of chasing it and striving for it. How do you define the word success and how do you strive for it day to day in your life?

Success is to me, and I ripped this mercilessly from Naval Akan is getting what you want out of life.

So people that are successful are maybe not monetarily successful or maybe not necessarily spiritually successful or relationally successful. It is I set out to do this thing and I achieve this thing that is success. To me, that is power. And so if I want to be a good dad, which got my little dad cup here, I got a little 19 month old, love that dude to death and have an amazing wife, and if I want to be a good dad, and I define success in this certain way, first of all, you got to have the clarity. Success is when I define it and I go after it and I achieve it. That is actually success. It’s just not like a one-sided coin. It’s multiple sided because success without fulfillment, as Tony Robbins says, is the ultimate failure. I think that there has to be a holistic view on success, but it is at its core, it is getting what you want out of life.

Yeah, I love it. When it comes to, you mentioned AI earlier and how land is 10 years previous to where we’re at now with house flipping, do you use AI in your land flipping business, and if so, how?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We just use it to speed up processes. So everything we do, we add it as an efficiency to making sure, of course you get the basics, like writing emails faster, but analyzing large data sets. We have a community of people that land investors that want to start or scale this business, and we use it a lot to help our community in becoming more efficient, helping with underwriting deals, helping us switch feedback on our sales calls. We just think about everything we do and we want to use AI to do it better, but we’re not reinventing the wheel at this point. I like the boring aspect of land investing, and I’m not trying to invent some application to be the next AI multimillionaire billionaire. It’s like, let’s just do what we do currently better. Let’s use it as a competitive advantage. And that’s how I think about it very practically.

Awesome. Let’s say you were going to restart from scratch. You get to keep all the knowledge that you’ve had and built over the last couple of years, but the business goes away completely. What would you focus on first to rebuild

People? Having the right people? I still believe that today the best, biggest breakthroughs in my business never happened through me. It happened through other people. And whether that’s hiring a coach, whether that’s most significantly relationships, whether it’s team members, they are the alpha team, building team management and team members are the alpha in any business. And I always go kind of the hypothetical extreme. So you say wholesaling is more competitive. Why is it that some guy in San Diego is doing 50 million a year? Is it the alpha then, right? It is the alpha. He has a better team. So this guy in San Diego, one of the most competitive markets is making 50 million per year in house flipping. Okay, so why can’t you do that? Well, you don’t have the skillset or you don’t have the right people because theoretically you could own that business and not do anything and still do that if you had the same team members that he has. And so the bigger that I’ve grown, the more I realized that everything is the alpha in literally everything is team building and team. So I recently hired A COO and my business is we’re closing 30 deals in the next two weeks as a result of this guy that’s just an absolute stud and will be bringing on better and better team members. And what I did the worst in my business was when I wasn’t paying attention to my people and when I didn’t have the right people in the right seats.

What would you say to someone, a lot of people that are just by themselves, they do the business alone and they’re scared to hire people. What would you say to someone in that position that thinks they can do it the best and that especially acquisitions, something that a lot of people are very stuck on doing themselves. What would you say to someone like that and what would you tell them to get them over that hurdle?

The best business owners are just really good at allocating their resources, whether that’s their people, their time or their money. And so if you can make an exchange between the dollar per hour that you produce through acquisitions for someone else and you can do a higher and better thing, then you should do that thing, right? It’s the same exact thing that you go at the beginning. You say, okay, so I can’t hire an acquisition manager, but imagine you’re just starting the business and you’re pulling data. You could say, no one pulls data as well as you do. Okay, that might be fair, that might be fair. But you can hire someone for $5 an hour to do that task or $6 an hour. And so then all of a sudden your effective hourly rate goes up significantly what you’re actually producing. And so at every level of your business, the best business owners trade their effective hourly rate for something else.

So I recently hired, like I said, A COO. He’s not a cheap hire. He’s going to make a lot of money this year, but I believe that I could trade a effective hourly rate of me doing something or not doing it with this guy. And we produce the revenue that we needed accordingly. And so everything comes down to resource allocation. Everything comes down to return on time, employee or capital. So if I invest in this acquisition manager, will I get a higher return if I allocate my time elsewhere? If so, do it. If not, don’t do it. I think that it just comes down to we make decisions in a vacuum that are incredibly emotional and the people that are really good at business, the people that thrive are the ones that look at the data and make the data, makes the decisions, because data is the ultimate director.

And so if I look at my business and I say, I need to hire an acquisition manager, then I do that thing and not a result of myself, it’s a result of the data. So I would say that is important. And then a helpful tip is higher based on calendar and constraints. So the ultimate focusing force multiplier for hiring is you look at your calendar and you look at your constraints in your business and you add those together and you find out there are certain outputs that I need to hire for. So you don’t get confused by titles, you focus on outputs. So you might have, I need to hire an acquisition manager. It’s like maybe the outputs that you need to hire for is a part-time EA and a full-time lead manager. And so the tasks that you thought you were doing that were taking the time off your table, you’re effectively preserving your hourly rate because you’re focusing on just closing deals. And that only takes you 20 hours per week in the additional 20 hours that you have. Or if you’re a normal business cycle, like myself, you have more than 20 hours that you’re working, you’re working more than 40 hours, and so that additional time Noah is supported through the ea, and then you can focus on those higher dollar per hour tasks. So it’s just resource allocation and then calendar and constraints.

What drives you to personally keep innovating and striving for bigger and better?

I think that there’s something really beautiful that we’re building with the Landman community, and I want to be an example as an operator versus just someone who’s a standard coach or consultant. And I also want to be an example for my family. Man, this game is really fun. I like playing the game. And so I’m really excited about what we’re building with the Land Man community, helping people. I build wealth through land investing, whether it’s just flipping land like we do or developing land like we do or something much beyond that. I think there’s an amazing movement that we can participate in today through buying and selling land, helping people find their new American dream, their new dream home. And then there’s the personal scoreboard. One of the greatest quotes that I’ve ever heard is from Warren Buffet, and he talks about the internal versus the external scorecard.

And the internal scorecard is summed up in this quote, would you rather be the world’s greatest lover, but known as the worst or the world’s worst lover, but known as the greatest, right? That’s how, if you have an internal or extort or scorecard, and it’s this old guy, 95-year-old dude laughing and jolly and saying it. So it’s kind of funny, but it’s true, right? Do you want to be known as the person or do you want to actually do the thing? So I think the internal scorecard is a big driving mechanism for me that I’m doing this thing and it’s really for me being proud of myself, being proud of the man that I’m becoming, and in the example that I’m setting for my son and my future children.

That’s awesome. Well, where can people find out more about you? Where can people learn about you? If someone wants to reach out and learn more about what you’re doing here, where can people find you?

Yeah, I’m sure we can put my social media in the show notes, but I’m everywhere. Clay Heppler or the Clay Heppler on YouTube and TikTok I on TikTok and Twitter. I’m very active Instagram, I’m very active, and if you want to learn more about getting involved in land investing, you can go to Land Man io.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you all for listening. Clay, thank you so much for your time and coming on today. It’s been a pleasure and look forward to talking to you soon,

My man. Thank you for having me.

Alrighty.