Getting online, doing free webinars and then going to events are probably the biggest ones in my mind. Find the events that are most highly, I wouldn’t say recommended by people that have been in the business and why. I mean, it needs to fit your goal to go there. If you’re like, “Want to do multifamily but I’m going to wholesaling event.” I mean, okay, it doesn’t mean you can’t find somebody there, but that’s probably not where you want to spend your time. Whether it’s an LP or GP, I think in some cases the mistake would be the same. It’s basically trying to use future, what’s going to happen in the future to make your decision today, whether that’s to buy a new deal. As far as someone that is doing more deals versus someone that’s not doing as many deals, typically they’re a lot more, they’re active. They’re not just waiting around. People are sitting around seeing what’s going to happen. They’re out there talking to brokers on a daily basis, talking to investors on a daily basis and they’re being very active making offers, even though in some cases a lot of the offers are going to get projected.

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Mark, first off, thank you so much for coming on. I know you’ve been in the business for around 30 years. I’m curious to know if there was one thing that you could credit all your time in real estate too. What would be the one thing that really made you successful in this niche?

Persistence and grit, I guess. I would say grit because you’re going to get your teeth kicked in at some point in time if you’re in the business long enough and you have a choice to make, whether you press in and go further or you decide to give up. So ritz of what’s going to keep you going and having a why. I love it.

I love it. What drew you to real estate in the first place?

Yeah, good question. I pretty much taught everyone I have no idea. It was my brother and I have identical twin brother and we were in college, we were 21 and we were both kind of more logical thinkers, I guess you’d say, graduated and accounting and things like that. We’re like, “Man, people need a place to live.” So nobody in our family or no one we knew was doing real estate. So we said, let’s go buy a, bought a three unit the first thing we bought and had no idea what we’re doing, knew nothing. We rehabbed it ourselves, did everything like that. But the end of the day, I think it just made sense to me that people need a place to live, so why not buy real estate?

Yeah, for sure. What was your life like, and I know it’s been a while, but what was your life like before getting into investing?

So career-wise, I was a CPA, then I did IT consulting. I worked for the Big Four as well doing kind of management consulting and continued to buy smaller properties. So the biggest change would be when we got involved in syndications, just fancy word, group purchasing, essentially bringing money together to buy bigger deals. That’s when things changed. I was working typically probably minimum 80 hours a week in my IT company. I started an IT company in 2008. People were like, “2008.” I’m like, actually I was busy nonstop and actually doing pretty well for projects and just kind of couldn’t shut it off and caused some issues just not being around and being gone all the time. And my wife’s like, “You need to do something different.” And I’m like, “Yeah, my spare time, let me figure out something else.” But we both liked real estate. We were buying real estate when we were young, even together with my wife as well. I had a lot of stress. I felt like it was just all work, all business, really didn’t have the relationships if you want to say being built. Started investing passively initially into syndications, then started doing our own syndications. And reality was that that changed pretty quickly for us to where we replaced my income and quit doing IT consulting and got to a point where we could kind of buy whatever we wanted, but then we had some struggles too along the way.

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For the people listening, what does the business look like today?

Well, overall, we’ve done about 1.5 billion in multifamily, 18,000 units, 120 deals, 15 states, but a lot of the deals we bought in 2022 really were on value add deals, floating rate debt, things like that. So really I spent the last couple years just trying to fix problems. That’s really been kind of the full-time job. Last deal we bought was 2023, and then I raised an idea recently just on a bridge to AT&C. So going from short-term debt, high interest rate to long-term debt, lower interest rate and just started kind of kicking things back up again, actually. I think there hasn’t been much to buy out there, but I do think lenders are starting to discount properties a lot now and some other things that were uncertain. There’s always uncertainty, but some of the things that were major uncertainties are kind of honing in a litle bit, not quite as uncertain as they were before, causing some good potential opportunities. So for us, it’s kind of rebuild mode, frankly.

Yeah. What was the main problem that you were trying to solve when getting into multifamily?

Probably fear because we were syndicating and I mean, I was an IT guy, a CPA, IT guy. I never raised money. I felt really kind of weird if you want to say even trying to raise capital for deals. And that was probably the biggest hurdle was mentally, how am I going to raise money on a deal? Never did it before. I felt good enough, if you want to say on analyzing deals and we all can look and say, “Hey, your performer is not necessarily reality,” which is true. But I felt like, hey, I could kind of get a handle on that operation-wise, I felt like I kind of have the management experience and some operational experience, but the capital for me was just like, yeah, it was nerve-wracking for me. And then what if you can’t raise it? When the one you do, then you’re a failure.

Yeah. Capital is a big thing. I mean, I feel like some investors choose routes that take less capital. When it comes to multifamily, obviously you’re going to need some capital.What was your best strategies to get capital?

For us, we met tons of people at events, meetups, events, we sponsored events. And then you look at some other people too, just being online and giving people free, free information, educating them and teaching them. And you have to take a step back sometimes and say, some people just get into it. They’re baby steps and that’s totally fine. They’re just getting started. And you have other people that are super, very experienced in dealing with big issues in some cases and big problems. And these aren’t 10, $20,000 problems. They’re like 100,000 millions and dollars and things like that. So getting online, doing free webinars and then going to events are probably the biggest ones in my mind. And then just everyone thinks it’s always business and it’s okay to have a conversation with somebody about their interest or their kids’ interest. And that’s where you have to take a step back and be like, people want to do business with people that know, like, and trust, which trust should be … I think Reagan might’ve said trust would verify. Although I loved him, I would disagree with that. I would say barely, you need to verify, verify, and then maybe trust. But on paper, make sure you don’t trust anybody from a business perspective, make sure everything’s accounted for in business. I don’t care who it is, family member or not. And people think that’s being a little cynical. It’s like, no, it’s making sure everyone has a clear understanding of the way things are going to work and what happens if they don’t. And if you and I are partners on a deal together fifty fifty and you want to sell, and I’m like, “I don’t want to sell.” Well, you’re stuck. So making sure on those partnerships that most people I see that come into our group are doing fifty fifty partners, if you do that, make sure you have a tiebreaker, like a legally binding tie breaker in your operating agreement that says what happens if we can’t agree and one of us won’t be happy, but we have to abide by it legally.

Yeah, for sure. When it comes to events, I mean, you kind of hit it right on the head. A lot of people are there to socialize. Obviously they’re there for a business, but it’s a form of connecting with people and then the business comes afterward. I feel like that’s such a key part of it, especially after COVID, everyone was stuck and obviously in Texas it wasn’t as bad as California and New York, but we were still kind of loose with it, but it’s such a big thing. I mean, masterminds and events are the biggest part of it. Why do you think so many investors are almost scared to spend money to make money in the sense of masterminds? What would you say to an investor that’s scared to put their money on the table to go to an event? That’s

A good question. I mean, I was there. I mean, what a waste, right? I’m going to go spend money. And if you’re joining a group like a mastermind or we have a coaching group, I mean, it’s expensive, right? I mean, it’s a lot of money. And one of the reasons why people typically are a little hesitant too is they’ve been burned before from cases. “Hey, I put money, I gave this guy money and they were horrible or whatever. I would just say try it, but ask around. I mean, there are forums. You could go to event every weekend if you wanted to and maybe pick a percentage, but half of them might be a waste of time, really. So find the events that are most highly, I wouldn’t say recommended by people that have been in the business and why. I mean, it needs to fit your goal to go there. If you’re like, ” Oh, I want to do multifamily, but I’m going to a wholesaling event. “I mean, okay, it doesn’t mean you can’t find somebody there, but that’s probably not where you want to spend your time at a wholesaling event if you want to do multifamily. So make sure you go into the right spots to meet people, but it’s your whole weekend typically, right? Plus maybe you’re flying there and hotel, but looking back at it and people won’t probably believe this until they go through it. You could be part of a mastermind or I could bet you deals that are in trouble right now. I coach people on a daily basis, guys across the country. And I can tell you one piece of advice on your deal that you’re in that could very well save you hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of dollars. I’m not exaggerating when I say that. So what’s that worth of somebody? People don’t put the value on it because they don’t see the value upfront and it’s very hard some cases to quantify what the value is of something upfront. But like I said, there are a lot of forums out there, ask people what they like about events and understand why you’re going there and then pick a couple in a year and just go to them and network. And it’s usually fun. You might meet people there that you meet that are lifelong friends. We have people that we’ve met that are like lifelong friends.

Yeah. And there’s a lot of events in Dallas too, so I’m sure there’s a lot of people in your area that makes it a lot easier for that. What’s the most common mistake that you often see investors make that you think could be really easily avoided?

Whether it’s an LP or GP, I think in some cases the mistake would be the same. It’s basically trying to use future, what’s going to happen in the future to make your decision today, whether that’s to buy a new deal or to dump money into a deal that’s bleeding cash and you think you can save the deal and you’re like, well, people might listening might survive the 2025. Okay, how’d that work out for everybody? Not very well. Persist to 2026. I mean, so you’re sitting there and you’re going to have to use some sort of future projections, but I think myself included got caught into where it’s like, okay, this is what all the experts are saying is going to happen. Well, that’s not what happened. They’re wrong way more than they’re right. So you have to use what information you have today and if the deal is potentially going to cashflow, even a little bit today, that’s much different than a deal that you get into and you say, “Well, the only way this deal works is if we re-tenant it, rehab every single unit and we get out of it in two, three years because our bridge loan is up and we have to refinance or sell.” And it’s again, using what’s going to happen in the future to make your decisions today. And that’s where I think people get in trouble.

Well, there’s a lot of onesie twosies in this business, people that are doing one or two deals a year and then there’s people that do it at a high volume. What do you think separates the top operators from everyone else in your experience?

Well, I would maybe make a comment on top operator might be open for debate what a top operator is, meaning if just because you’re doing more deals, but as far as someone that is doing more deals versus someone that’s not doing as many deals, typically they’re a lot more, they’re active. They’re not just waiting around. People are sitting around seeing what’s going to happen. They’re out there talking to brokers on a daily basis, talking to investors on a daily basis and they’re being very active making offers, even though some cases a lot of the offers are going to get rejected versus the person that sits around like, “I’m looking for the perfect deal.” The perfect deal doesn’t exist. I mean, if it does, it’s by accident. You just got lucky. And then like to your point earlier when we discussed about the capital, at some point in time, if you had endless capital laying around, you had a fund, whatever, $500 million sitting there, you’re probably going to buy more deals than if you’re going to have to raise capital in every deal. It doesn’t mean you’re going out looking for deals that are worse than just because you have more money, but you can make a lot more offers, you can be more competitive, you can be more active, but there’s more stress. There’s no question. Everything has to cost. Just because you’re doing more deals and when problems happen, you’re going to have potentially problems on more deals than the person doing one or two and you’re giving something up with every decision you make, whether that’s time, whether it’s money, whether it’s relationship, whether it’s health, they all have an impact on you as a person and people around you. So when the guys are like … I was like that. All I want to do is make money, work. I mean, just like nonstop, nonstop, this is what you do. Take it the older you get, hopefully you realize nothing wrong with trying to be successful for sure, but what are you giving up by doing that? Are you super successful and you die when you’re 50 years old of a heart attack, your kids, you can’t walk your daughter down the aisle? I mean, you really need to think about those things. And it doesn’t mean you sit on your hands and be lazy. It doesn’t, but it might mean that, hey, you know what? It’s okay to go a little slower, but I have a more, I just want to say I’m happier, more peaceful, less anxiety, less stress, doesn’t go away completely. And you might just have other stresses and maybe it’s relationship stresses or whatever it might be. So there’s always just kind of a balancing act.

And of course, obviously most of the people that are doing less deals have bigger profit margins, so it all evens out somewhat at the end of the day for sure. When it comes to the word success, and you kind of touched on it a little bit just now, but the word kind of intrigues me a lot. I feel like everyone’s got their own definition for it, their own way of striving for it and their own way of measuring it. How do you define the word succes? How do you strive for it and how do you measure it?

You used to measure it and strive for just mostly financial. How much money do you have? What’s your net worth? How much money in the bank? How many units can you do? And again, I think you do need to have goals and that is part of the financial success, but I also, I think you can ignore other areas. I think I’m healthy, I work out, I eat really clean, stuff like that, but I wasn’t doing that before. And then you have, what about your marriage? And to me, it’s when you get to the end of your day and end of your life, it’s like, okay, who’s by your bedside? I mean, people that I know have estranged kids, that would break my heart. So at the end, if I can have people that around me that love me, willing to take care of me and ultimately, whether people are a Christian or not, I am. And at the end of the day, if you know you’re going to heaven, then it doesn’t mean you want to just like, “Oh, just ready to die. I want to die today.” I’m not saying that, but it’s like at the end of the day, and then you can lead other people there from a spiritual standpoint, for one, relationship with Jesus, but also now I help people a lot on the multifamily space by going over tons of issues that I’ve had and what I would do differently. And before you’re just going, going, going, it’s kind of all about you. You’re, I would say, selfish with your time and resources and things like that. And so giving back to people, having relationships that are loving and strong and there to the very end and having a relationship with Jesus are going to be the most important ones for me.

That’s awesome. When it comes to deals that you’re doing currently, are you still having other people be in the funding for your deals or what’s kind of your situation right now?

A deal we did recently, which is really the first deal we did since 2023. So it’s been quite a while and it was really moving from bridge to long-term fixed debt, the one I said, and there were other people raising on that deal as well. So now taking a step back from the way we structured things before and when people are like, again, people are always like, “Oh, I trust this person.” I’m like, “Really?” I mean, we’ve all been surprised. I’m pretty sure most people know, like, and trust the person they’re married, but why do over half the people end in divorce, but you don’t think your partnership’s going to have issues? I mean, it’s just being naive. So for us, I like the idea of doing more JV type stuff, maybe the three or four people coming together to do a deal. Deal might be smaller and probably less investors in it for sure, but that’s kind of what I’m looking at, doing more of that. And the cash and refis on some deals, they were not stabilized or stabilized now. They qualify for Fannie Freddy type loans and maybe need a little capital come in. You come in with new equity, you sit in front of all the other investors, you have a high hurdle for your return. Yo maybe share in the equity on the backend when you sell the property. Those are the deals that I like the most.

I love it. I love it. Where can people learn more about you if someone’s interested in partnering with you in a deal or they want to learn more from you or about you, where can they go to get in touch with you?

So our website is thinkmultifamily.com and then an email is info@thinkmultifamily.com.

Awesome. Awesome. Any final advice for investors that are looking to grow, scale, or maybe simplify their business?

To your point earlier, I think is get part of a group or find somebody that’s been there, done that. Not someone that’s been successful 100% of the time. Find people that have not been successful and maybe are now and learn from them and listen to them, but understand the reasons why they’re telling you something and hopefully you can make a lot less mistakes on your own because again, these mistakes are not small mistakes or they’re big. So find somebody that can come alongside with you and help you. I

Love it. I love it. Mark, thank you so much for taking the time. Everyone, thanks for watching and we’ll see you next time.

Thanks.