Paul Lizell: (00:00)
Over rehabbing is one that I always have seen over time, especially as new investor. You wanna make this thing perfect, you see that so often, but you gotta understand sometimes less is more because that longer that rehab goes on, the more increase your costs are. As far as the rehab is concerned, I would definitely focus on wholesaling because I think it gives you the best perspective of everything. If the market shifts, if you’re not shifting right away with it, you’re gonna be behind the eight ball here and you’re gonna start paying a price pretty quickly. For me, that piece of advice would be one thing. Make sure your first deal is super profitable. You want that first deal to be so meaty and so good that it just makes you want to do more.

Noah Kesslin: (00:41)
Welcome guys. Welcome to the REM podcast. My name is Noah, and today we have

Paul Lizell: (00:48)
Paul Elle.

Noah Kesslin: (00:49)
Awesome. Paul, thank you for coming on brother. I know we’ve been friends for a little bit. I know you know Tony for a while. Kind of just, you know, tell your story to the, everyone watching and, and potentially that don’t know who you are. Just kind of give a little background of yourself.

Paul Lizell: (01:02)
Sure. I’ll give, uh uh, I’ll go way back right to when I was in college and he kind of asked me before, how did I end up getting into real estate. So even before college from junior high all the way through college, I worked for my uncle who was a general contractor. So I learned how to do every skill. There was roofing, siding, windows, doors, electrical, plumbing, concrete work. Uh, we did everything from a Z foundations. We did decks, we, so I knew how to do everything on a house. I’ve been able to rebuild a house from the time I was pretty young, which was helpful in real estate. Now my uncle got into buying properties that were moldy units, duplexes, triplexes, quadraplexes, and he would renovate and refinance ’em, keep ’em as rentals. So that, yeah, got me pretty interested in real estate at a younger age.

Paul Lizell: (01:43)
And then after I graduated from Drexel with degree in finance and economics, I went into banking. So I was a commercial business loan underwriter for a year. Then it became a business development officer, BDO for another four years after that. First with the community bank, then with Citizens Bank and more northeast based company outta Rhode Island. And even though I was in affiliate market at the time, but they went all the way down towards Maryland and Delaware. So that, that was my background in banking and also in real estate there. So I was starting to do fix and flips from the time I, I think it was the very end of 2001. It was December of 2001. I got my very first property. It was a HUD property bank owned and that’s kind of, you’ll find here, it’s my specialty, my bread and butter. It’s been, you know, since way back in the day.

Paul Lizell: (02:28)
So 24 going on, 25 years in this business doing that. So I did fix and flips first property, I did, we picked it up for 29,500. We sold it for 69,000. I part worth a guy. We split it. Then I just kept on buying, kept on fixing and flipping. And then we hit the financial crisis of 2008, right? This going 2001 to 2008. Everything was great until then. We noticed some cracks in, in the foundation there around 2007. And in 2008 it really hit in 2009. And then foreclosures flooded to market, which was great for me because I bought tons of foreclosures, a bunch of HUD properties and a bunch of bank owned properties and online auctions. So I changed my model from fixing and flipping, which almost put me under, ’cause I had massive losses into wholesaling and we’re picking up properties from HUD for 90,000, seldom for 150.

Paul Lizell: (03:19)
These were properties that were listed. 225, 230 5,000. They were taking that significant of a discount because they just wanted to get rid of inventory. They had so much inventory. So my model switched from a hundred percent fixing and flipping with an occasional wholesale deal to 90% wholesaling, a little bit of flipping still and occasional buy and hold. That was my model through about 2014 when the market kind of settled and then things moved up again. I think it was around 2013 when the market, when the market bottomed and 2014 started moving up again. Now I kept doing the same thing, but I changed my percentage of wholesaling and fix and flipping each year depending on what the market’s like. And now we’re in, in a very different market. Of course.

Noah Kesslin: (04:02)
Yeah. You talk about pivoting a lot, you know, a lot of people feel like they have to do the same thing all the time when it comes to overcoming challenges. What do you think the biggest challenge that you’ve had to overcome is so far?

Paul Lizell: (04:14)
It was definitely going from that fix and flip to a wholesaling mindset because it’s, the mindset’s totally, totally different between the two. ’cause I’m looking at deals, I’m like, you know, I could sell this and make 40 k but if I fix it up I can make a hundred K. Right? But you have to get outta that mindset. And I was trying to get out of a hole and that was the quickest way out of the hole. Just those properties and moving that way. And you gotta go with the way the, with what the market’s given you. You know, we were in the past five years, we were in a whole tailing market where you didn’t have to do a whole lot of work on a property, right? You just do some minor painting, some flooring, some minor updates and then put it back on a market and you’re selling it really, really quick. Now we’re heading towards a market that’s shifting a little bit differently again.

Noah Kesslin: (04:53)
Oh yeah. When it comes to the market now, what are you, what are you seeing right now?

Paul Lizell: (04:57)
So the good news is from the foreclosure standpoint, from our perspective, not from the people who are dealing with it. Foreclosures have been going up quite a bit over the last six months really. It’s been an annual trend, but they really started increasing in the early summer months and each month you’re getting double digit increases in foreclosures. So we’re seeing it on our end. We’re doing a lot more through the HUD home store. I haven’t been buying active off the HUD home store since about 2015 and now we’re buying a lot of deals on HUD home store in different markets, right? Every market’s different. There’s a lot of these northeast states that still have really constrained inventory and some in the Midwest too. And then there’s other markets that ha that are burgeoning with inventory like Florida, you know, you like Texas, like part different parts of Louisiana and Alabama and even Tennessee to an extent. So we’re really attacking those markets that have more inventory and looking for those aged, you know, days on the market and attacking those properties.

Noah Kesslin: (05:51)
What do you think a lot of investors do mistake wise? Like what mistakes do you often see investors make in this kind of market that could easily, easily be avoided

Paul Lizell: (06:02)
Over rehabbing is one that I always have seen over time, right? I think we’ve, especially as new investor, you wanna make this thing perfect, you see that so often, but you gotta understand sometimes less is more because that longer that rehab goes on, the more increase your costs are as far as the rehab is concerned. But also you’re holding costs where you’re holding onto this property for extra months to get this rehab done perfectly the way you want to. Your insurance costs have gone up all across the country, not just in Florida and California and and Arizona, Texas. They’ve gone up all over the country drastically. So all these costs add up more and then your profit just gets wiped out. And I’ve seen this happen with a lot of new investors going from being able to make money to now you’re selling a property at a loss because you over rehabbed. It took too long to get everything done.

Noah Kesslin: (06:48)
Oh yeah. When it comes to home prices, what’s your sweet spot right now that you’re seeing?

Paul Lizell: (06:53)
I love the one to two 50 range that’s really kind of, you know, ’cause you end up selling anything under three 50 or under 400 still moves pretty darn well in different parts of the country. And a median price keeps going up. What is the average medium price now around four 50 or so across the country, which is crazy. That’s crazy numbers compared to what it has been, you know, just a decade before that the um, the affordability has certainly changed for sure, but the uh, our average price point that we love is one to two 50 on a purchase side because we know we’re gonna be able to move that property pretty quick. There’s such a big buyer base at that price point.

Noah Kesslin: (07:28)
Yeah, I definitely, we’ve seen it too. I mean one once we go over, depending on the market, right? Mm-hmm. You know, looking at that first time home buyer in each market is still flying off the shelves. Yeah. When it goes up that, you know, three, 400 plus range, it’s is definitely taking longer to sell. Are you seeing that your deals right now currently are sitting a little longer than they were maybe let’s say even three, four months ago?

Paul Lizell: (07:52)
Absolutely. Yeah. We got one in Texas just sitting and sitting and you know, and that’s a decent market, but there’s again, there’s good bit of inventory and when buyers have enough choices, things sit. We’re in a more normal market, right? You have longer hold times. Instead of selling things within the first 30 days, you’re maybe waiting 60 to 90 days to sell things and, and that’s okay and you gotta drop your price accordingly. We dropped our price on that one two times we’re the least expensive property in that area. So we do expect to move. It’s just a matter of finding the right buyer, being patient enough for it and hopefully it doesn’t kill you on holding costs.

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Noah Kesslin: (09:07)
Let’s say you were to start completely from scratch today. What would you focus on first?

Paul Lizell: (09:14)
I would definitely focus on wholesaling because I think it gives you the best perspective of everything. You’re obviously, if you’re doing direct to seller, you’re negotiating with the seller, then you’re getting the property under contract hopefully, right? And then you’ve gotta find a buyer for that. So you’re doing a lot more than just a fix and flipper who is buying it say from a wholesaler who already did all that work and is now just listing it on the MLS. So you’re not learning as much if you wholesaling is like the basics, right? They, it used to have a, a bad name to it, but over the years it has changed the perception of it, I would say. And I personally like wholesalers, right? They’ve gotten a little crazy with their pricing in different markets and they’ve gotta come back to reality and stop trying to ask retail pricing. But good ones move properties quickly and they get a great perspective when they learn from the the buy side to the sell side and how to market the property.

Noah Kesslin: (10:03)
That’s awesome. I know this whole, you know, new thing is the whole AI and everyone’s talking about it. Are you using it currently in your business and what do you use it for if so?

Paul Lizell: (10:12)
So I use it more on my podcast and video editing and stuff that I’m listing on my YouTube stuff for sure. However, I do utilize it now or especially over the past two months in markets. I’ll look at, I’ll ask it chat GPT or whichever one I’m using. That’s one I’m most commonly used. This particular market has this had a big increase in inventory over the past several months or years. What does it look like? And I, you can ask it that it gives you pretty good numbers and pretty good data. It’ll tell you if the market’s oversaturated right now or, or not and what the price points are doing, are they going up, are they going down in a particular market? So it is great to use from that perspective for sure. And I think we’re just gonna start utilizing it more and more and more.

Noah Kesslin: (10:53)
That’s awesome because I know obviously you’re in South Florida but you’re investing in multiple markets so I guess it definitely keeps a a tab on other markets for you so you don’t have to That’s awesome.

Paul Lizell: (11:03)
Yeah, yeah, we need to do that. I mean we bought 44 outta 50 states and there’s markets that, just to give you an example, there was one in Texas we were looking at about six months ago and we had it under contract. It was a HUD property and it didn’t have a ton of inventory, but right before closing, a week before closing, we looked at all the sudden the market was flooded with inventory. It was a big red flag, right? And a big, I guess it was a big one or two big companies had were leaving the the market. So that was that everybody had their house for sale, right? Because they gotta move, they gotta go wherever the company’s moving. So that was a big red flag and we just lost the deposit on that one and just walked away from it. So you gotta be willing to do that and that’s where staying on top of that stuff and looking at those numbers constantly and then when before you go to close on a property, making sure everything is the same as what it was when you got under a contract and it’s not heading in the wrong direction is super important.

Paul Lizell: (11:51)
It can help you not lose money on deals.

Noah Kesslin: (11:54)
Oh yeah. Most investors I talk to are big on the 80 20 rule. I mean when it comes to losing money, just making sure it’s the least amount, you know, you can lose on a deal and make sure that 80% of the deals you are doing are profitable is, is a great strategy for sure. What would you say separates top investors from everyone else in the space?

Paul Lizell: (12:16)
Being able to adapt really quickly and change really quickly. A lot of investors, and this goes to any business, right, if the market shifts, if you’re not shifting right away with it, you’re gonna be behind the the eight ball here and you’re gonna start paying a price pretty quickly. So I used to, and this goes back even as more recently as around 20 18, 20 19, 20 20 is when everything shifted for me. Of course COVID right and everything shifted then, but before that point I used to look at my company every six months. So I would do, we have the first quarter, the second quarter and we look at what worked, what didn’t work and then make changes for the third and fourth quarter. And then it became the point where we had to do it quarterly. Now you have to do it monthly if you’re not looking at it every month and adjusting like, all right, we just did two deals in Tennessee this past six months and it both were duds, let’s avoid the Tennessee market right now.

Paul Lizell: (13:08)
Let’s shift and look somewhere else. And that’s kind of what you gotta do. And if you aren’t quick to adapt, you’ll be extinct. I’ve seen a lot of investors come and go in this business in my 25 years of doing it, the financial crisis 2008 wiped out probably 90 some percent of them. But we’ve had a couple that tried to grow way too quickly. Yeah, some of the MA we’re in a couple different masterminds here and collective genius, which is a great one that Jason Medley runs. There’s people that used to thump their chest, they wanted to do so many deals, I wanna do a hundred deals a year, I wanna do 300 deals here. And they kept trying to do more and more. I’m like, guys, you’re doing the wrong thing. I’m actually going backwards. I did 135 deals one year and I want to do way less. I wanna increase my profitability of each of those deals. Let those other deals that aren’t that great just go. So they went in the wrong direction, A lot of ’em went belly up. Some of ’em were good and can scale and do it if you can scale with it and grow with it. But it’s really difficult to do.

Noah Kesslin: (13:59)
Oh yeah, I’m big on simpl simplicity and I feel like the investors that have the most investors get into investing for time freedom, right? Yeah. And then they start chasing doing this many deals and then it’s like you, you just threw your freedom out the road because

Paul Lizell: (14:15)
Sure did wasn’t

Noah Kesslin: (14:16)
That many deals. It’s hard to not be stressed and be in the business all the time. When you say you were in, you know, two deals in Tennessee that that didn’t make a profit and you get out of Tennessee, how long do you wait until you go back into that market?

Paul Lizell: (14:30)
Yeah, uh, it depends and and usually what, it’s not that we’ll just a hundred percent vacate it, but what I’ve done was shift our numbers. So most investors look at the RV and they’ll go 75% or 70%. Well, a long time ago, over a year and a half ago I shifted to 65% and then you minus your repairs out and people do 10% above repairs. Well I increased my repairs to 25% above and then we increased our hold time from four months to nine months. So by putting all those safeguards in there, it really gave us a lot more leeway to make sure we find meaty deals. And so if we find deals that meet all their criteria, I’ll go, I’ll still do a deal in there ’cause odds are we’re gonna move it. But now what I’m doing is wholesaling that deal instead of, instead of maybe doing a whole tail on that deal, I’m trying to find another investor to flip it to.

Paul Lizell: (15:19)
I’ll make a quick 10 or 15 or 20, let them make the rest of it on a flip and, and I’m happy And they’re happy and I have no time holding it. Less stress. Yeah, less money. But it’s still a good deal for me and, and I have no time into it. So like you said, less is more. It’s reducing, it’s giving you more time. Wholesaling I feel like gives you way more time. Rehabbing takes all your time away ’cause you just get sucked up and wrapped into that rehab and all the different things that come up that you didn’t expect that can come up in a rehab, right? You sometimes you run into a foundational issue or sometimes you run into a bunch of plumbing issues you weren’t expecting or the septic is bad and depending on where it is in the country, septic can be really expensive to replace in some places is cheap a well good is bad and they’re well run is dry and and different parts of the country you have to go really deep to get water . So the, these are all factors that you gotta kind of come up with and know and understand and buying all over the country. We’ve run into a lot of these different things and we’ve learned how to factor them into our deals. So we’re making sure we’re getting media deals.

Noah Kesslin: (16:19)
Awesome. I know a lot of people talk about the word success, what it means and a lot of people have different definitions for it. How do you measure success in your business? What KPIs or outcomes matter the most to you?

Paul Lizell: (16:32)
Number one for us is profitability in a deal. Right? And I think that’s for anybody, right? And you do wanna have those big jumbo deals like every once in a blue moon you’ll get a flip. They make a hundred K on they’re few and far between but you’ll get somewhere you make a hundred K on different markets. You could do that easier than the markets we’re looking at. Especially at our price points. The biggest number we look at is profitability for sure. And we’d rather do less dso, which goes to, to next piece of it here, the ROI. So I’d much rather do say 40 or 60 deals a year than 120. And of those 40 or 60 we’re making say on average 40 to 50 K profit on those compared to other we’re doing double the amount and we’re making 25 to 30 K, right?

Paul Lizell: (17:18)
Because that’s a lot more work involved and the numbers probably end up being kind of similar in the end. And to give you just a little back on that story, so when I went from 134 deals, that was that one year, I think that was 2013, I did that in to the next year going down to 80, my profits went up, I actually made more money and I did way less deals. So that taught me a, a good lesson there and just look for meatier deals and don’t chase every single deal and don’t chase the new shiny object out there like that. We all fall into, oh now I can, I could do instead, you know, whole tailing and I could do fix and flipping and start adding these different things. It’s good to be able to do these different things but you don’t necessarily wanna just force it If you, what you got is working really, really well and you could scale that more, I think you’re better off scaling that one thing you’re doing really, really well.

Paul Lizell: (18:08)
Better off than just trying another new thing ’cause it’s a little bit different. Don’t follow that shiny object syndrome. Um, that being said, I do have a lot of investors right now because it’s really hard to find deals in different markets that are reaching out to me and they’re trying to, they’re trying to cut marketing costs and this is smart. So how can I find more bank owned deals? How can I, you know, what, what could I buy off there? So they’re actually buying my program which is super, super cheap and then they’re having their acquisition manager just dive into that and just add that as another potential, you know, resource what that doesn’t cost ’em any more money besides, you know, radio or TV like you guys do in tv. I still think is the best in most markets out there as far as visibility. You’re gonna have people wanting to talk to you way more than if you’re sending postcards, right? Or just handwritten letters they’ve seen or they recognize you and there’s something, there’s something to that, that and that, that does matter. But adding another source like that doesn’t cost you anything. Whether you’re buying on Zillow or buying on the MLS or buying bank owned properties. It’s another great way to bring things in and that’s what investors are looking at right now. I’m getting a lot of requests over the past two months from that.

Noah Kesslin: (19:13)
Oh yeah. What marketing do you do?

Paul Lizell: (19:16)
I do zero marketing. So the only marketing I do is occasionally is emails with agents, but that’s not marketing. It doesn’t cost me anything. I’ll reach out to them, send out like a monthly email like how, how is it going? Do you have any properties that might meet my criteria? ’cause these are all free deals for me if they bring ’em to me, these things don’t cost anything. So that’s my marketing right there. So luckily I’m fortunate I don’t have marketing costs. The only time I did is when I did TV with you guys and I did well with that but as I told you, my acquisition manager wasn’t good. My dispositions wasn’t good. We still made money but I need to clean that up. And we, you and I have talked about potentially going back in here and starting it up again in my marker, which I’m probably looking at doing in the next six months or so here. Once I get everything squared away and once we have all our, you know, t’s crossing our i’s dotted I it is definitely something I’m gonna look at here again.

Noah Kesslin: (20:02)
That’s awesome. I know for newbies especially, but really anyone, you know when it comes to the amount of deals and just being able to say it but when it comes to newbies going into their first deal, they, they just kind of want to get one done. You know, going back to your first deal, what would you like one piece of advice for yourself before you did that first deal for anyone else that may be starting or you know, going into their first deal now?

Paul Lizell: (20:27)
So for me that piece of advice would be one thing. Make sure your first deal is super profitable . And I’ll say that because 90% of people in this business go out of business and I think it’s because so many have a bad experience on their first deal where they lost money. And I do know some guys who lost money and end up still staying in the business and doing well after that. But you want that first deal to be so meaty and so good that it just makes you want to do more and then more and more and the more you do. Sometimes what happens is with investors, they try to grab more and more. Like we talk about doing more and more deals and they lose focus of getting meaty deals and you start taking more deals just to take more deals. That’s where you don’t wanna go.

Paul Lizell: (21:09)
So finding a great deal is one and keeping your focus on just getting meaty deals. We have a investor up that, I can’t remember his name right, I’m blanking on it off the top of my head, but he’s up there in Connecticut. He probably only does 20 deals a year because he averages about a hundred K on each of those deals. So he doesn’t need to do too many deals. Right. And that’s working smarter and and not harder and he doesn’t wanna lose focus that he wants to find more deals but they need to be meaty deals like that. So he’s got his eyes on a prize. So that’s the way you kind of want to focus on.

Noah Kesslin: (21:37)
Yeah, I think most people I would agree with you wash out because their first deal, they just want to get a deal done and they either lose money or don’t make money and then they’re kind of like, well that didn’t work. So I would definitely agree with you on that. What do you think, you know, I feel like a lot of people have eerie feelings towards investors. What do you think is a common misconception people have about real estate investors in general?

Paul Lizell: (21:59)
Well people used to think of them a lot of times as like snake oil salesmen, right? Coming in to steal your your house and try to get it super cheap. And don’t get me wrong, I mean every investor wants to buy it as cheap as they can. Just like good friend of mine, Noah Seidenberg, he runs a paddle company that does platform tennis, Padell and Pitt out pickleball and he’s trying to source his materials as cheap as he possibly can, right? Any business owner is gonna do that. It gets what the reason the perception gets bad on for real estate investors is ’cause it’s their house that these people are living in. It’s not just a material that doesn’t necessarily mean anything to ’em, right? So that’s why sometimes you get that snake oil salesman and they’re not that, there are some that are, you know, kind of scru unscrupulous but for the most point investors are trying to help make it a win for the uh, seller and a win for them as the buyer. And that’s probably 90 some percent of investors out there. You you’re always gonna have some bad guys out there, but most of them out there that I know, they’re not out there to totally screw people. They don’t wanna do that.

Noah Kesslin: (22:55)
Oh a hundred percent. I mean, you know, most people their, their word is their everything and you know their reputation’s on the line every house that they do and you know, it, it’s almost funny to a point where it’s like you can’t have a business that doesn’t make a profit. Like obviously you need to make a profit on each house and some of these people are just like, it, it’s almost like common sense isn’t super common, you know, one of those. I agree Thor. But any exciting projects that you have going on or any, any goals that you’re working on right now? Anything that you’d like to share with, with the listeners?

Paul Lizell: (23:26)
Yeah, so we’re really focusing in on which markets to be in in 2026 ’cause it looks like if, if you look at it from the economy, the way the economy’s go, it’s not phenomenal, right? The economy’s not great but looks like interest rates are heading in the right direction and if interest rates continue heading in the right direction and say we get lucky and get into the fives by next spring, we’re gonna have a a pretty good burgeoning real estate market again in a lot of different places and it’ll soak up some of that. Inventory’s been sitting there for a little while so we’re prepped for that and trying to figure out what markets to be in. We are heavy in Florida Cook one ’cause I live here and I just think there’s so much opportunity here in certain niche markets here in Florida. Same with Texas to an extent, but we’re also focused on ones we love like Indiana, Ohio.

Paul Lizell: (24:10)
We still do some in Pennsylvania where I’m originally from Michigan, Tennessee, I still do like it. We’re actually closing on one uh, this month here that we’re gonna do a little whole tail on and Louisiana and Alabama and the Carolinas we’re gonna focus in on those markets. We’re gonna try to broaden and do more HUD deals because there’s more inventory going on HUD HomeStore there and of course the auction, this is the time of year that the auction companies are really good as far as online auctions being Zone Hub, zoo, Hudson Marshall and others. ’cause all these asset managers want their pro, they wanna get as much off the books by year end as they can. So this is where we pick up a good bit of inventory here going into January and February of next year.

Noah Kesslin: (24:51)
That’s awesome. Cool. I know you have, I don’t know exactly if it’s a course or uh, mastermind that people can come in and learn about what you do, kind of, you know, where can people find what you do and and learn about more about what you’re doing?

Paul Lizell: (25:05)
Sure. They could follow us on a YouTube channel. The virtual investor, uh, it’s on YouTube and also REO Auction Academy, that’s REO auction academy.com. They go on there, watch a little webinar. We do have a program, couple different levels, right? We have a Doit Yourself program where people could learn the online auctions themselves. And we also have one where we have a group coaching one and that’s around five grand for the group coaching one. And you know, you get monthly calls, you get access to all us plus you get VIP access on the auction companies where you don’t have the, on some of the auction companies where you don’t have to put that bid deposit hold down that you can just start bidding on a lot of different properties.

Noah Kesslin: (25:43)
Awesome. Love it. Cool. Any last piece of wisdom or any final thought you’d like to say with our audience today?

Paul Lizell: (25:49)
I’d say, you know, make sure you focusing on, especially if you’re newer, focusing on media deals and be more conservative. So like what I said, I’m doing 65% of after repair value and when I say after repair value, I’m not necessarily going after repair of a full scale rehab. So I’m looking at something that’s more like a whole tail. So that’s my a RV and I’m still using that 65% minus repairs. Give yourself more hold time, make sure you get meaty deals out there. Just be careful in different markets. There’s still some markets you could pay way, way more. You gotta go to 75% of ARV in the Northeast ’cause there’s just not much inventory available. And if you wanna stay relevant and compete, you gotta do what you gotta do. But definitely try to get as many meaty deals as you can. Less is more and focus on other aspects of life. Like stay in a shape playing pickleball like knowing one I like to do or golf, whatever you like to do. You know, focus on other things to get, you need to find that work life balance.

Noah Kesslin: (26:43)
Awesome. I uh, I love that you brought up the fact that you like to beat my on a pickleball court. .

Paul Lizell: (26:49)
. We have fun out there now. Playing with each other, verse each other. We have a lot of fun.

Noah Kesslin: (26:53)
Oh yeah, it’s always fun with you by, I appreciate you for coming on Paul and look forward to chatting with you soon. Thank you guys for listening. Thanks

Paul Lizell: (26:59)
Now. Appreciate it. Thank you everyone. Appreciate being on the show.