For me, it’s been hiring the right people, creating really good culture, and getting everybody bought into the company. That’s my strength, and that’s where I feel like we’ve really excelled, be a good core value fit for what’s the most important in your company. So for me, it’s like being driven, motivated, continuous improvement, being accountable, and being reputable. I see a lot of people, they have a lot of luck wholesaling, and then they instantly want to start flipping because they think there are better margins there. And flipping is a completely different business at wholesaling, radically different. I think every entrepreneur deals with and fights, or I know I’ve done it multiple times. Luckily, on a smaller scale, but it’s really made me realize quit chasing the shiny objects. I feel really confident in marketing too. In the last year and a half, we put so much more effort.

What’s going on guys? Welcome back. Today we have Sean from Columbus, has done about a thousand transactions in the Columbus area. John, thank you so much for taking the time and coming on with us. I want to start with kind of taking a step back and really just get digging into how you got into real estate in the first place.

Yeah. So I’ve always been an entrepreneur, never been too good great at working for other people. And I was in California working in an agriculture business for about 10 years. I was just ready for a change. I had some friends, a couple mentors or just people I looked up to throughout growing up who had done a little bit with Realtold. And I’d always knew that that was an option. And so yeah, probably about eight years ago, I started to get a lot more … As I was ready for a change in my life to do something different, started researching a lot on real estate and different strategies within that and decided to just completely take the full on plunge. Beginning of 2018, I moved from Northern California to Columbus, Ohio, just based on a couple months of research on what I thought would be the best market to start a real estate investing career. I didn’t really know anything about wholesaling. I was just determined to get into real estate in some way and started pounding podcasts and reading books and doing a lot of research and just kind of stumbled onto Columbus and stumbled onto wholesaling.

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. What was your life like before investing compared to now?

Oh, I mean, yeah, a lot more responsibility these days. So our real estate company has about 35 people in it. And then we have a virtual assistant company for cold calling and outbound marketing, lead managers for other real estate investors. So with all the virtual assistants and cold callers, we’ve got about 300 employees there. So yeah, just a lot more responsibility. Before, I was more doing everything for myself with my own future being the focus. But one thing I’ve learned over years is the teams have grown and everything. You really care about the people you’re working with. So I would say that’s probably the biggest change. And then yeah, I think it’s just always just solving new problems, bigger problems, problems that you never even knew existed.

For sure. For sure. And then taking us from then to now, what does the business look like today? I know you have the res VA as well as the wholesale fix and flip company. What does each leg of the business look like today?

Yeah. So our real estate investing business, we’ve been in Columbus since 2018, just steadily grown every year since we started doing it. So we do a lot of fix and we do probably 20% fix and flips, 10% we hold onto as rentals and Burr, and then 70% we wholesale. We have crews in- house and project do all of our property management in- house. So there are definitely different parts of that business. And obviously the data aggregation, the marketing, it’s grown a lot to where we used to, me and my partner used to be making all the decisions within different departments to then where we started having people in departments to started to have a little teams within the department. So that’s been a super fun journey. That’s definitely changed a lot. And then with the VA company, it’s been good. It’s been a challenge. It started out with my real estate investing company doing a lot of outbound marketing, a lot of cold calling and texting. And then we’ve also built a real estate investing company to where we have a lot of high level people over in Egypt. Our sales manager who manages our in- person closers and about 15 people, he’s based in Egypt. One of our lead marketing people, they’re based in Egypt, our person in charge of our entire dispo department. So for the last five years, we’ve had this kind of secret sauce of getting really high level talent in Egypt. About three and a half years ago, it progressed to where we had somebody working with us start doing all of our outbound marketing and sourcing our lead managers. And that worked out really well for us. And then it just grew into this marketing business where we know … I think Tony’s the same way. Whenever you start a business out of a necessity or just knowing the need, it makes, for one, you have a lot more knowledge of that. And then it’s built around fixing what you feel like is already wrong and how that service could be better. So that’s been fun. It’s definitely challenging because there’s so many different pieces that go into successful marketing campaigns, but that’s been a really fun journey.

Yeah, a hundred percent. I want to go back to, you mentioned you just brought in your property management in- house. Was that right?

No, we’ve been doing that from the beginning. So for about four years, we did it when it didn’t make sense because we didn’t have that many units to where now it definitely makes sense. But yeah.

Gotcha. And is that just for your properties or is that for other properties outside of your properties, just for your properties? Yeah,

Just our property, just about a hundred long-term and 20, 25 short-term. The thought behind that is property management can be so difficult and people do it so poorly. Nobody’s going to care about it as much as yourself. And I feel like the rentals are a lot of the only retirement I have, so I want to make sure they’re taken care of well and maximized.

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Just wanted to check because I know that’s kind of how we do it too. So I was just curious, what was the main problem that you were trying to solve when switching from your previous business to real estate?

I guess at the time, I didn’t really know. At the time it was more just opportunity and wanting something different and change. Kind of reflecting back now though, I think real estate definitely sets … For somebody who … There’s the opportunity to set stuff up to where you can gain a lot of freedom. I think that’s probably a lot of building up small businesses and watching them grow as the opportunity to create an organization where the owner can focus on the stuff that they enjoy the most, that they’re the best at. And so that’s given me a lot of freedom. And that’s been the biggest thing that I’ve gained from that change and I’m the most grateful for, for sure.

When it comes to having 35 people on a team, it’s not easy, right? So what is something that you would tell an investor that maybe is a one-man band or maybe they have a couple people. What was the main difference in revenue, growth, scalability from going from a, I would say, one to three member team to a 35-member team?

Yeah. I mean, for me, I mean, obviously there are a lot of different right answers for how somebody might do it. Me personally, I’m very much a relationship person. I have more of a sales background. So for me, it’s been hiring the right people, creating really good culture, and getting everybody bought into the company. That’s my strength, and that’s where I feel like we’ve really excelled. It’s like half of our team is remote, but for the last five, six years, we’ve done an international company trip and gotten everybody together and really just put a lot … I’ve go out to Egypt three or four times every year for the last few years. So building a very strong culture where people are very well taken care of, But that they know that there’s very high expectations and they’re delivering on those. That’s been the seat. And then the other thing too is I’m very good at a few things and I’m really bad at a lot of things, to be honest, but thankfully one of the things I’m really good at is recognizing my weaknesses and being confident in delegating those out and finding good people to do that. So I’ve really leaned into that and built my business around having really good people who feel supported and motivated to do whatever it takes to be successful.

Yeah. It’s a lot more challenging than people think. When you hire, do you hire for … And obviously it’s multiple things, but if you could pick one thing to hire based off of, would it be experience, culture, or maybe some sort of PI test or disc assessment? If you had to pick one of those three, which one would you …

I would say somebody who aligned … For me, truly, we use PI, we’ve used different sales assessments. Experience, I’m not as much on personally, because I’m somebody who likes … I think there’s a lot of value in having somebody, the right candidate, the right personality be molded into a position and investing in that way. I think the biggest thing for me personally is having … I know our core values are super important to me and just trying to … People can bullshit you and tell you whatever you want to hear when you’re hiring, but just trying to get the best gut check you can on if you feel like that person is going to be a good core value fit for what’s the most important in your company. So for me, it’s being driven, motivated, continuous improvement, being accountable and being reputable in that order. So I’m looking for people who are motivated. That drive is super important for me and our culture, so that’s one of it, but it’s a combination of all of that stuff. I think I’m very much a just gut instinct kind of emotional person myself, so I lean on that. You don’t want to lean on that too much. So it’s always just trying to find the balance between all of these different factors. But for me personally, I think trying to see what drives that person the best you can and seeing if it syncs up to the company culture is the biggest thing.

I think that’s huge and I think it’s not talked about enough. I mean, we’ve had people in the organization that on paper made so much sense, but they come in and they think they know everything or they think they don’t need to do this or this or they don’t need to do it how … We want them to do it. So when you say moldable and coachable and teachable, when you’re in the interview process, obviously a lot of people can say whatever they want to in the interview, “Yeah, I’m motivated. Yeah, I’m this. I’m that. ” Because I’ve heard people have some crazy tactics. Do you have anything that you use to try and not trap them, but to kind of trick them into being more honest or anything that you guys specialize in that?

Yeah. Well, so one thing we’ll do is we’ll do a score matrix. So we’ll have 10 or 15 different qualities that we’re looking for in that position, and then everybody who interviews will keep track of that so that we’re having different people approach them in different ways. So I think that’s one thing is usually we’ll do three rounds of interviews and with different people every time to see what we can uncover. And then just tracking and tracking what we’re trying to hit on and Going more than just memory. But the one question I have, I actually got this from Gary Harper probably five, six years ago, is just asking somebody, like I say, the core value piece is really big for me. So I’ll say, “Hey, Noah, who’s somebody in your life who that you really look up to, you really idolize, they’ve been a role model for you, whether it’s fictional or family member, anybody.” And then they’ll always name somebody and then it’s like, “Okay, tell me the four or five things that you look up to that person the most.” So that’s a really good way of uncovering what motivates somebody and then what attributes are the most important. And it’s hard to, in the moment, try to figure out what the right answer is.

Right. Yeah, because it’s not something they can pre … There’s so many lists of interview questions that people study and they try and get the answer to. I’ve never understood it. I’ve never been able to do that. It’s definitely a good one. I’m not surprised it was from Gary. Shout out Gary Harper, but definitely not surprised that’s where it came from. That’s genius.

Yeah. I think the other thing too is my partner, he’ll be very structured in it. He’ll have that scales matrix. I’ll go into it and I’ll maybe have the skills matrix on the computer, but I’m probably not really … I’m way more informal and just kind of trying … So that probably helps to uncover as much as you can having not only different people, but different techniques in how they approach the interview.

Yeah. And I think onboarding’s such a big piece that not many people talk about with having 35 employees, I just want to harp on this piece because I know a lot of investors either struggle with the fact that they think they’re as good in every aspect that they don’t want to hire out or they just don’t know how to, or they struggle with it so they don’t do it. So I’m trying to harp on this piece to kind of push this point, but when it comes to obviously interviewing, it’s a big piece once you make the offer, but onboarding is a big piece as well. Do you have any major things that you guys make sure to do in the onboarding process when they just come on?

Yeah. So it’s improved dramatically, I’d say the last year, year and a half. Or I mean, yeah, I can remember when we would first hire people, it’d be just like, okay, sit behind me for a week and we’re all like, listen to me make calls or just like you’re going to shadow this person and just show up on Monday with no, nothing. It’s always been a structure and organization have always been big weaknesses of mine. So over the last year and a half, two years, we’ve definitely improved a lot. I think one thing is just having a basic company handbook that has all of the information about the company, just all of the policies, trying to create … From the first time that person comes in, they have an office, they have a little welcome package, they have that handbook, they have an agenda of what the first week or two weeks is going to look like. I think that’s a big thing. Just a little bit of that’s been even having to fake it for us, but putting the time and the resources into doing it the right way. But I think being organized right from the get- go and having that first 30 days really lined out exactly what’s going to happen. And then those 30, 60, 90-day goals like, “Hey, this is where we would hope that you would be. And if you don’t feel like you’re going to be there, reach out to us.” The regular real check-in, structured check-ins every 30 days, probably more informal check-ins every week, creating atmosphere where people are really, they’re encouraged to bring ideas and to ask lots of questions. I think those are some things that we’ve done to help that out a lot, and there’s still so much room for improvement, or we might have it, we hire a lot of junior sales, lead managers. We’re really good at it there. I think prioritizing an acquisition position, hiring the wrong person there can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. So how can you be as meticulous about that? Not just hiring the right person, but creating the confidence for when they walk in on day one, like, “Okay, this is a place I want to build my future with. ” I think that’s a lot of different things going in there and there’s still so much room for improvement. I would say just focus on the basic stuff, make them feel like there’s, or have a lot of structure in place.

Yeah. And I know Gary always talks about having their vision fit within your vision and being able to go that way. So yeah, a hundred percent. What do you think from a mistake standpoint and what you see with other investors, what do you think is the biggest mistake that you see investors make that you think could be super easily avoidable?

Yeah. I mean, one, once people have success, I see people will have success in the first few years and then they’ll either try to do too much, scale, go into new markets or take on a different asset class or just try to not hyper-focus on the thing that’s really working. I see that happen a decent amount. I think not building the organization, putting the time into the stuff, like the handbook, the boring stuff, especially once you’re scaling probably over 10 people. Yeah. I mean, I see a lot of people get not … They have a lot of luck wholesaling and then they instantly want to start flipping because they think there are better margins there and flipping is a completely different business in wholesaling, radically different or they want to buy rentals. So I think, yeah, not staying hyper-focused on stuff until it’s really successful is probably the thing I see more often than not. And that I think every entrepreneur deals with and fights, or I know I’ve done it multiple times, luckily on a smaller scale, but it’s merely made me realize, quit chasing the shiny objects.

Yeah. Well, yeah, we’ve had plenty of people. I remember it vividly, we had a client who was a younger guy, he was in three different markets. He did TV with us for one market, did super well, then added two markets on top of the one market right away, and it just was too much. He didn’t understand. So to your point, I mean, adding more markets or just overloading spend that you don’t have yet that you just figure you’ll make back, I think is huge. But then on the flip side, it’s like so many people do well or did well two, three years ago and it was super easy. And then now this year has been a little bit trickier and people are having a harder time finding deals. When it comes to your experience, I know you have your outbound model, because we’re mostly inbound, so I’m curious to see how this year’s been for you as far as your cold calling and texting and how do you get around, because I know there’s more regulations on it now. How do you get around those regulations with the cold calling and texting?

Yeah. So a lot of the regulations I’ve gone into place have been more state-based. So obviously there are ways to stay compliant with that. So obviously you prioritize that and that pretty much will take care of itself. Yeah. So this year has, I think, been challenging for a lot of people. I’ve definitely caught on to that and we’ve had … Geez, I think the huge thing for us is the cost of a qualified lead.That’s the one metric that keeps me up at night that I … How much does it cost for us to get an appointment? At the end of the day, because I feel really confident in our sales, I feel really confident in marketing too. In the last year and a half, we’ve put so much more effort into marketing and understanding what our vendors are doing and really trying to be really smart with how we spend our marketing money. And even though we’re, I would say five times better at it than we were a year and a half ago, it’s still costing us 10% more to get that, because it should be moving the other way. So for me, I’ve seen that’s been a huge challenge. I know that’s always a challenge in the space and it’s been across both channels. Texting has done a lot better for us this year and cold calling is doing good. We do a lot of inbound stuff and mail’s been great and PPC has been a big challenge. So things are always kind of … But then I hear a lot of other investors really struggling with mail. So yeah, it’s definitely been a challenge. I’ve definitely seen a lot of people around the country being challenged too. So I think with that, that’s what I’m trying to do to counteract it is just be as smart … I’m sure this is what you guys are always telling people, just really understand your marketing budgets and the return you’re getting from that. And I think it’s never been more important

For us. Yeah. To spend very wisely. 100% agree with you on that. When it comes to marketing, it’s such a tricky piece because if you don’t have it, your business is done. So it really is a marketing and sales business, right? I mean, it comes down to that. It’s funny with direct mail though, because I hear so many people in so many markets do so well and then so many people in other markets do so bad with direct mail. It seems like it really is a market-based marketing channel. I don’t know if you know Josh Axe in PA, but Crush is direct mail. We just can’t figure out … I think one year we got a 3X maybe, but usually we’re in the one to 2X on direct mail. I just can’t figure it out. But I’d love to, man. I’d love to.

Yeah, no doubt. PPC has been our redheaded stepchild the last couple of years where we used to have it at four and now we can’t get … We get over three or like

…

But the more attention you can put into diving deep on that stuff, because I know there are even people in my market who are getting better numbers than we are on certain channels. So there’s always a solution for it. So the deeper you can dive and have the right people looking at the right things. But yeah, it’s my struggle as well.

Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. When it comes to the word success, everyone’s got their own definition for it. How do you measure success in your life? How do you define the word success and how do you strive for it every day?

Yeah, that’s a great question, man. I would say start the first piece. I would say success for me is mad, just how happy am I in life? I am somebody who really values relationships, friendships, and experiences. So if I’m feeling really rich in those parts of my life, then that’s success for me. As far as what it looks like in the business, I’m somebody who I really am invested and care about the people I work with. That’s the biggest motivator I would say for me is I love having created a space where people have a lot of opportunity. Real estate’s completely changed my life, and I’m insanely grateful for the freedom that’s given me and the opportunities it’s given me. And I really like the people who are a really good fit to work with, the people who really help us grow the business. I’m just really passionate about how can I give the same opportunities that I have to them. So if the company’s doing that, that is where I feel like it’s successful. Obviously, for that to happen, it takes growth, expansion. And for that to happen, you got to be making money and everything else needs to fall into place below that. But I think seeing a really incredible work culture and people having opportunities and being excited about work, that’s how I’d say that’s how I define success within the companies. Awesome.

Awesome. I love it. I love it. I want to challenge you with this next one. Let’s say your business completely went away, every team member, the entire business, I’ll let you keep enough money to survive for six months, and after that you’re out of money and you were going to restart from scratch. What would you focus on first to rebuild?

Man, I’m probably going to spend some time doing some research, figuring out the three markets, maybe two markets, maybe just one big market, just to throw something out there. Say Dallas. I do some research, seems like there’s some opportunity in Dallas. I’m going to be pounding foreclosures or probates or I choose one or the other, and I would just be on the phone with those people as often as I can trying to have high quality conversations, build rapport, get those people to like Like me and trust me and figure out how I can help them out. And I think everything else would fall into place really quick.

I love it. I love it. Who has been the biggest influence for you in the space?

Yeah, geez, Matt, just to shoot more kudos over to Gary. I think I started working with Sharper five and a half, six years ago, and it’s been the hands down best investment I’ve made in business. And then Gary’s also somebody who, when he tells me to do something and I do it, it’s the right call. I do something and he tells me to do something and I don’t do it. I regret it. He tells me to do something and I take a while to do it, but then I eventually do it. I’m thinking in my head, why didn’t I listen to him earlier? So I’d say him and the whole sharper team has been really influential and great in the business. And then just getting an idea too of how to really run and scale a business from an organization and leadership standpoint. That’s been crucial.

I love it. I love it. Yeah. Gary’s definitely a very intelligent man. You can learn a lot from one conversation. He keeps a

Lot of really good people in his orbit too. So he’s connected me with Keith, who’s a phenomenal leadership coach. I’ve worked with Austin and Brandon and Amanda and all these other amazing people on the team that he keeps really, really good company. And I think that’s always a good indication of somebody, especially in the business world, who are the people who want to be on that team. Oh,

I love it. I love it for sure. Well, where can people learn more about you if someone is interested in ResVA or just to ask more about your real estate? Or if there’s a private lender listening that wants to lend some money, whatever the case may be, where can people reach out to you?

Absolutely. Yeah, no, like I say, I don’t have a lot of other channels to work, so relationships, that’s kind of my bread and butter. So always love to connect with different people, help out any way I can. So yeah, so LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Sean Grabow, pretty easy to find with a unique name. Anybody whoever wants to learn about our outbound marketing service, we’ve got about a hundred clients right now. Been doing it for over three and a half years. They can always check out rez-va.com or just reach out to me. Yeah. And then anybody who’s ever in Columbus, give me a jingle and love to connect.

Awesome. I love it. I love it. I love the energy. Well, Sean, thank you so much for taking the time. Everyone, thanks for watching and we’ll see you next time.

It was a pleasure. Thanks so much, Noe.

My pleasure.