And there’s always a good deal somewhere. Somebody you go to sell their property, somebody doesn’t see some upside. There’s other strategies like you can get into real estate development, which is a very high risk, but a big value add opportunity. There’s a lot of guru masterminds out there nowadays that kind of push a certain technique, which is not to say that it’s wrong, but it’s not necessarily … There’s a distinction between building equity and owning assets versus building a business where you’re doing syndications and so forth. Success is kind of like being a hero of your own journey and creating a story which is compelling and going on these missions that transform you. And so basically when you reach a certain goal, you create a new goal and you create a new mission. I guess in some ways it’s contradicting to having zen and peace and being content.

There’s value in kind of creating your own story and being the hero of your story and being on a journey that that’s meaningful to you. I try to put myself around people that are a lot more successful than me. And so when you see what people have accomplished, you realize there’s a lot more to go. You realize that-

What’s going on guys? Welcome back. Today we have Mike out of Boston. He has a ton of multifamily properties and doors in the Boston market. Mike, first of all, thanks for coming on. Looking forward to chatting with you. I am curious though how you got into real estate in the first place.

Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great. So my background is I was computer science, a master’s from Harvard and was very much in that world, kind of went to conferences, built a couple startups, unsuccessful. And so I always kind of thought entrepreneurship was the way to go. And so real estate kind of fell in my lap a little bit. So we started out with the vacation rentals on the Cape. So I live in the Boston area. So the Cape market, we bought a vacation rental 10 years ago and it was more of like a family kind of a vacation house. And we were very surprised how much money at the time Airbnb was able to generate. And so we put it up just to kind of try it out to see what would happen. And I want to say like the very first year, so we bought a house for like $365,000 at the time. The very first year it cashflowed $50,000. So it was just a crazy return that I don’t think you can get an Airbnb at the moment. And so at that time it kind of clicked that this is potentially my out of the nine to five, et cetera. And so I did have to negotiate a lot with my wife and my mom and kind of just my family, et cetera, to kind of believe in the business. But I went to more or less all into the vacation rental market. So we bought another house the next year off the profits and then another house. And then basically three years in, I kind of realized that this doesn’t scale. So this is kind of … So even though I was, it was just a lot of stress with vacation rentals and you live and die by the review. And so at that time is when I discovered bigger pockets and started to kind of really consume the knowledge behind multifamily, commercial and all that kind of stuff. And that’s when I kind of really clicked to switch and go all in and have that belief. But I always, I’m an immigrant from Ukraine. I was born in Ukraine. I came here when I was nine. So I always grew up with nothing. So I always kind of aspire to make something of myself. And so I always aspired to do more, start a company. It was like going to be the big next Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.That didn’t happen, but I see real estate as kind of like a sure way to get rich slowly. And so far, it’s been pretty good.

Awesome. Awesome. What was your life like before real estate investing? And then how does your business look like today?

Sure. So before real estate invest, I had a pretty decent job. So I had a nine to five. I did start a couple of companies that didn’t succeed and was part of like incubators, startup incubators and that kind of stuff. And so I was an avid learner. I had the belief that kind of through tech, a computer science center, that I could build a business, I could become the next Mark Zuckerberg, et cetera. But that didn’t happen. And so with real estate, as we started initially … So I quit my job about seven years ago to do this full-time. And so now it’s a full-time operation. My wife quit her job and so she works with me. And so I had a pretty decent income, but then it just kind of made sense to switch. And so we more than … We used a lot of techniques. So we still house hack, for example. So we do house hacking. We have 220 units that cashflow. And we’ve built the business as a kind of snowball model. So we don’t take outside capital. So we’ve kind of started out with more or less nothing and then kind of reinvested the money instead of buying fancy cars or nice houses or that kind of stuff. We reinvested into real estate. And so year after year, it really built up. And so today, between the 220 units, it’s across 20 buildings. We have property management, third party property management for, I want to say like a hundred units. And so 120 units we manage ourselves. And there’s pros and cons to that. It’s kind of a trade off, right? So you’re keeping some of the money, you can reinvest it. So a lot of the focus today is kind of focused on running the business as well as the directional and kind of focusing on the future. So the vision, acquisitions, and kind of seeing where things are going and kind of navigating the space. So trying to keep on top of what’s going on in the market, where it’s going, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, every day, there’s no pattern. Every day is different for sure.

Gotcha. What was the main problem that you were trying to solve when starting this business?

Yeah, the main problem was I felt like … So I mean, for me, even being good in tech, at the time I was making about $200,000 a year. This was about 10 years ago. And I could just see the writing on the wall that 10 years from now, 20 years from now, it’s not sustainable. So not only can you not really get wealthy, but also you see the younger kids coming up. And so even if you become a big manager, all this kind of stuff, you’re still … There’s a ceiling and you can only make … If you make it into Google or Facebook or those kinds of companies, sure, you can make maybe $400,000 or whatever. But even then, you’re not going to be having a house on the beach in Naples, right? Naples, Florida. So for me, this was just real estate was just kind of an opportunity to make a mark, have some freedom and kind of build a life for myself from real estate. I think we’ve accomplished that. So today, so for example, now with our real estate portfolio, this summer we took six weeks. We went to Europe. We went to Spain and Switzerland and all this kind of stuff, which by the way, is way too long. I have little kids, way too long to go for six weeks. But with that said, it’s not all magic.You’re still very involved with the business. There’s evictions. There is people moving out. It’s not fully passive by any means. So I’m in the process of trying to transition into a more passive business. And so the way to do that, in my opinion, is try to move into kind of more stable, holdable assets. So that’s kind of my belief is that you have to have … So right now, a lot of my portfolio is made up of class C assets. So we have multifamily classy assets that are … They cash flow well. They’re around the Boston area. So they’re Southern New Hampshire, they’re Central Mass, they’re Western Mass, they’re Rhode Island, they’re kind of all over the place. And they cash flow well. They’ve appreciated because of COVID, but it’s difficult to hand off and just give somebody the reins to manage it. So you really still have to be involved in the business. And so my hope is that with commercial real estate, with better assets over time, maybe you can sacrifice some of the cashflow, but you can get into a more passive long-term sustainable business.

Gotcha. What are some of the main strategies that you’re using right now to acquire new buildings or new units?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, so finding buildings is, it’s always been difficult. Every time I buy a building, I’m always like, I’m never going to find another building again. And then somehow it happens. But now it’s more than ever very difficult. So I’m super aggressive when there’s an opportunity. I’m super persistent to the point where I just brainwash myself that it’s okay to call the agent 10 times a day and put myself kind of in front of the list. But yeah, so I mean, I still look at MLS. It’s not very helpful, but I’ll still browse it once in a while. There’s Crexi and sites like that, LoopNet, et cetera. So I’ve done mailers, and so I do mailers. So I use some platforms for mailers, and so send out letters and try to get some attention that way. It’s worked once, and so I believe that it could work again, but it’s certainly far from guarantee. You have to stick with it. You really have to invest into it. So I think if you look across … So you can kind of build a funnel. And so if you believe that if you send out a thousand letters of which you’ll get 10 responses, of which maybe one will be willing to show you the building and have a conversation. So then if you do that five, six months in a row, perhaps you’ll close on two buildings a year or something like that. So that’s kind of currently my strategy. And I’m taking it slow. I mean, at the moment with my portfolio, the market is … You got to be cautious. So I’m not eager. It’s not clear that the rents are going to go up. It’s not clear with the population that’s kind of been flattening out a little bit. So with ICE and other things that … So you have to be a little bit cautious with where the market is going. With that said, I still very much believe in real estate long term, but it’s just a matter of navigating. Is it going to be office space? Is it going to be retail? Is it going to be industrial? And how do you … And there’s always a good deal somewhere. Somebody’s eager to sell their property, somebody doesn’t see some upside. There’s other strategies like you can get into real estate development, which is a very high risk, but a big value add opportunity. So I kind of navigate a lot of these techniques, but I haven’t … The last deal that I purchased was May of this year. It was a 1031 exchange. And then I took the summer off to not try to look into real estate, not try to buy any real estate. And so now the bug is back. I’m pretty eager to find something. And yeah, so I’ve been looking, but it’s a very tough market. And so everything I buy has been in New England where I live. And so I’m certainly open to other markets, but it has to be justified. So there has to be a reason why you believe that investing somewhere else can give you low risk, higher return, comparable management, et cetera, et cetera. And so I’m fully aware that people are investing in Carolinas or Florida or Texas, but also that’s when markets overheat, that’s when you’re dealing with a lot of competition. So some cautious. But when you … My philosophy has been kind of like, if you look at a thousand deals, you build up that muscle kind of like AI, you build up that muscle that when you see a deal that kind of is an outlier a little bit, you’re ready to strike. So if you see price per door, price per square foot, what have you, the amount of renovations that are needed, et cetera, but those deals far and few,

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What do you think the biggest mistake that you see investors make that you think can be really easily avoided?

Biggest mistake. I mean, it’s hard to say. There’s a lot of guru masterminds out there nowadays that kind of push a certain technique, which is not to say that it’s wrong, but it’s not necessarily … There’s a distinction between building equity and owning assets versus building a business where you’re doing syndications and so forth. And so I think that a lot of people are jumping into these kind of larger assets that are very difficult to manage and you’re sort of … It’s hard to right the ship when the ship is going in the wrong direction. And so when the rates change, if the demographics of the city change, you’re kind of a little bit over your head. And so you could become very successful and you can get lucky, but you can also kind of steer in the wrong direction unknowingly. So I’m pretty cautious about that. And I also think that … It’s not to say that you shouldn’t do it, but so my philosophy has always been not to raise money. So not to say that … Or I’ll correct it. So not everybody … I didn’t start out wealthy, I didn’t have a lot of money to build up this business, but whenever I needed to get some money, I always did … If I was so confident in the deal, I would raise some debt. And so basically if I raised some debt at 12%, let’s say I was buying a building for like a million dollars, I needed $250,000, so it was a down payment, I would put down $150,000, I’d borrow $100,000, and then very quickly from cash flow and/or other things, I could pay that money back and now I own the building outright. And so therefore, if that building is now worth 1.5 million or $2 million, it’s all mine. don’t have to share it. But also the person that invested is fully aware and they’re getting the benefit of getting 12% with no risk. So I think I’d just be cautious around … And I think now people are catching on. So now I think people with the syndication model and all this kind of stuff, I think a lot has come to the forefront that people are a lot more cautious, but I think that … And so being patient and my philosophy is kind of like you do a lot of work in the dark and then kind of behind the non-sexy work. So that’s reading books, listening to podcasts, analyzing deals, all this kind of stuff, and then posting on Instagram when you have a good deal, all that kind of stuff, that’s very rare and shouldn’t be the primary strategy. But there’s also other opinions of people way more successful than me that do it differently. So take what I say with a grain of salt. Yeah,

For sure. For sure. What do you think separates top operators from everyone else in your experience?

Top operators? I mean, I think everybody has a different strategy. So for me, knowing myself, so there’s certain techniques that I’m good at and then there’s certain techniques that I’m not. So for example, I’m a very analytical, thoughtful person. I stay in my lane, so I’m a lot more strategy and all this kind of stuff. And then the operations, a lot of it is outsourced or a lot of it is kind of … It’s not perfect. So I don’t have the best systems. We have virtual assistants, but I don’t have the best SOPs and all this kind of stuff. So I used to be a lot more impressionable when I was younger. I would read a book. I got to go all the way and this is the new strategy, this is what you got to do, all this kind of stuff. So I’ve adjusted my technique a little bit. And so I think knowing yourself, and so you don’t have to necessarily copy other people’s businesses.That was the main thing for me from BiggerPockets at the time was I would listen to hundreds of stories from people’s successes, and then I would build my own model. And so over time, I’ve built my own piecemealed what works. And so I’ve built a business that exceeded my wildest dreams. But if anybody looked into my business, they’d be like, oh, I do it differently, or I do this differently, I do different … But then those people might not be doing what I’m doing or might still have a day job or what have you. So I think it’s just having conviction in yourself and building a business for your strengths

Yeah

Knowing your weaknesses, which we all have.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. When it comes to the word success, I feel like everyone’s got their own definition for it. Everyone strives for it differently. How do you define success in your life and how do you chase it every day?

Interesting question. Yeah, that’s a big question for sure. So I’ll share … I’ve given this a lot of thought actually. So there’s a book I recently read called Hero on a mission. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but it’s quite good. And basically the idea that I had this revelation this summer when I was in, as I mentioned, in Europe for six weeks with my family. And after four weeks, I was like, “This is great, but there’s only so many times you can go to the beach and you can go to these nice restaurants and walk on these cute streets, cobblestone roads and all this kind.” So what’s the point? And so I’m like, “I built this business and I have all this cashflow and all this kind of stuff and what’s next?” And so you can build a bigger business, but why? And so reading this book, and what I found interesting is that I had spoken to a lot of people about this question, and so it resonates with a lot of people. So a lot of people that reach a certain level of … They think about this. And so the takeaway from this book is that the whole purpose of … Success is being a hero of your own journey and creating a story which is compelling and going on these missions that transform you. And so basically when you reach a certain goal, you create a new goal and you create a new mission. And so if you have, in this mission, if there’s challenges, you’re facing villains and that’s good. That means that you’re on the right path. And so for me, accomplishing what I’ve accomplished today, in theory, I could stop working and I could go live in Costa Rica and live on the beach, but I’d be bored as hell. So for me now, it’s kind of like, what’s the next big thing? And so for example, one goal, and part of this actually is to write your own eulogy, and that helps define what you value and where you want to go in life, which is a great exercise that I did. But just as an example, from where my business is today, if I said, “Let me double it. ” But why? But if I say, “Let me double it or 10X it because of X, because I want to donate a hundred million dollars to a cause that I care about, because I want to … ” Now there’s a very compelling mission that I feel proud of that I want it to be mentioned in my eulogy. And so you get inspired and excited, and so you’re working towards that. And so through achieving that, through working on that, it kind of transforms you as a person. And so I think that’s kind of my new definition of success, which is always evolving. If I looked at myself 10 years ago, I would’ve thought I was very successful today, but now there’s new goals and new things to chase. And so I’m pretty excited about that. I’m pretty passionate about this kind of … I’m still defining it, but I live in Boston, we always win championships. And so whenever one of our sports teams wins a championship, I’m like, and now what? And so now I kind of realize, well, that was a goal. And so what’s the next thing?What’s the next thing? And I guess in some ways it’s contradicting to having zen and peace and being content, but I think there’s value in that. There’s value in creating your own story and being the hero of your story and being on a journey that’s meaningful to you. And so I’m defining those stories and I’m chasing them. Right now, for example, I’m doing a test where I want to see if I can create an extra … This is going to sound like a lot, but that’s the whole point is I want to add $50,000 worth of cashflow in the next two years. Maybe I can do it in a year, maybe I won’t accomplish it, but that’s the goal. I think two years is very realistic. I have a plan. I know how many buildings it will take. I know what kind of buildings I’m looking for, and so I’m pursuing it. And so if I can do it, then I’ll come back on this podcast and I’ll share how it went. And so also setting it like a timeline gives it in a football game or whatever, there’s a shot clock. And so that gives it urgency. Just like our lives, there’s a timeline, there’s 40 years left, whatever it is. And so there’s a timeline and so that puts pressure and that kind of gives it more significance and more meaning and urgency.

Yeah. I love the evolvingness and a lot of people, they get into this business for time freedom to build a business that pays for their lifestyle and pays for their life, and then you get it and then like what you’re saying, it’s like, all right, well, now what? So yeah, I definitely agree with you there. What are you seeing to be the biggest challenge in real estate right now?

Yeah. I mean, finding deals is tough. Finding deals is very tough. I mean, I don’t know, Texas maybe is a little different. I live in Boston, so evictions suck. Whether it’s in Massachusetts or New Hampshire, it’s just a pain. I just don’t feel like it’s right. It’s just something is off about the system that people … As many evictions I’ve done, as many times I’ve gone to court, as many times as I’ve kind of gone through the process, I still get very upset about the process because it’s insulting. The amount of money that you can lose, the amount of time, the amount of paperwork that you have to file for example, I went to court early November for somebody that wasn’t paying rent. And so the judge or whatever agreed that they have to be out by December 1st, or that was the agreement that we had, but they were already behind five months by the time we got to court, whatever. So December 1st came and went. They’re still in the apartment. They were supposed to pay in November. They didn’t pay. And so now I am filing for a motion to basically go for a hearing that’s going to happen potentially December 17th, at which point … So this is now, they haven’t paid in November, they’re still staying there. So December 7th, I have to go back to court, they’re probably not going to show up, but so at that point, only then would I get a default and only then I would get a writ of possession probably after New Year’s because by the time they send it out, etc. And so at that point, after New Year’s, that’ll be like January 5th, let’s say, I can take that rid of possession, take it to the sheriff. I have to pay the sheriff like $300, but not only that, then I have to pay for a moving company and a storage, which is like $3,000 to move all their stuff. It’s all on me. And so the sheriff would only come maybe around January 15th at their earliest. It could be like late … So they’re going to get an extra three months from the time that it was clear that they haven’t paid. And at that point, they didn’t pay for already five months because we’re waiting for court. So you’re basically getting, you’re losing like seven, eight months of rent. And so if you look at, plus you’re losing $20,000. Yeah, that’s crazy. And all of the pressure is on you to file the paperwork, to show up to court. I think that’s broken, but obviously that’s fitted, that’s in the model. I’m not crying poor. I have enough units where … But if that’s your only apartment and that’s your experience, you’re probably going to say,” I’m never investing again. “Oh yeah. And if you hire a lawyer, like for example, I hired a lawyer in New Hampshire, they charged me like four and a half thousand dollars to do nothing.

Nothing.

Nothing. And so it was four and a half thousand dollars plus, so that eviction cost me like $30,000. Across all of my evictions, I probably have lost $250,000 in my life, which is not fair. But then when you have to pay the clerk $39.47, if you pay 44 cents, they’re not moving forward. So it’s like, how is that fair?You’re losing $250,000 and they’re … But that’s the system. I hope it gets corrected. But otherwise, obviously acquisitions are difficult and just kind of navigating the … I mean, I think that more sophisticated strategies are like commercial real estate. There’s a lot of books written on the kind of basic topics, like basic multifamily, house hacking, that kind of stuff. Once you go a little bit more sophisticated, you have to seek out mentorship. And so if you have somebody that’s close to you that’s doing industrial real estate and has tons of buildings and has tons, you’re probably going to be way ahead of the game, right? Otherwise, that’s pretty difficult to figure out, which is what I’m trying to do right now. But yeah, I mean, I still very much believe in real estate. I think that I’ll probably do it my whole life, but it’s always evolving and yeah, I hope it’ll continue to be fun. Yeah.

It is interesting in different markets, the eviction process is vastly different. We had a talk in our mastermind a couple weeks ago, and someone mentioned that they don’t even try and evict their people anymore. They just offer them money to leave.

Cash for keys, right?

Yeah. And-

I do that. I do that, but they’re too smart around here. Well, it’s not too smart, but if they know why would they take $2,000 when they can-

Live for free for … Yeah. Free. Yeah, for sure.

And I think maybe because I’m too … I always wonder about this. I’m a pretty civil person, so I’m respectful. And so I wonder if I was very rugged and had that persona. I wonder if somebody would be like, ” I don’t know what this guy’s going to do. He’s unpredictable. “It’s just a little intimidation factor, but that’s not me, but I wonder if that works for some people. And so maybe they get away with it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable not paying rent and living in somebody’s house. I don’t know. That just feels wrong. But again, people’s mindset probably changes when they’re desperate.

I don’t understand how people can do that too. It’s kind of like squatters. I don’t understand why that is a thing. I don’t know why they have a name for it. I don’t know why they’re-

They’re trespassing. Why squatters?

Keep it as simple as that, for sure. Exactly. Yeah. What do you think drives you to keep innovating? I mean, obviously you’re talking about pivoting and learning different parts of the market and setting those new goals. What keeps you striving for that? Because like you said, I mean, you’ve built the business to the point where you could just go and live somewhere else and relax. Obviously you’d be really bored. I’d be bored.

Yeah.

But what drives you to keep innovating?

So I’m pretty young, so I think there’s just a lot more potential. I think when you get around … I try to put myself around people that are a lot more successful than me. And so when you see what people have accomplished, you realize there’s a lot more to go. You realize that there’s many levels to this game. And so you live once, so I’d like to kind of experience … I’m probably not going to be building a skyscraper, but you never know if you build the skillset and you go to enough Tony Robbins events and you brainwash yourself, you can do anything. But for me, it is back to hero and a mission, I think, is defining some big audacious goals. And it doesn’t always have to be through real estate. It could be … So for now, for example, my level of cash flow and net worth … There’s certain things that I can allow myself, but there’s a lot of coaching programs that are quite expensive that I’m like, eh, I don’t fly private or first class. So there’s a lot of … I could stay at five star hotels once in a while, but I don’t stay at five star … I’m going to a conference in New York in a week and a regular room is $1,000 per night. So if you get a nice room, so I think those kinds of things would be nice to reach, which I think, for example, adding $50,000 a month would allow for me to accomplish those things. And so then if I had better coaching, et cetera, et cetera, who knows what I could do in this life? More security, more all this kind of stuff, but I try not to get greedy in terms of I try not to get used to luxuries because then you become soft, then you become dependent on them. It’s harder to satisfy yourself. So I’m cautious around allowing myself to do that. But for sure, if I realized once I accomplished certain goals in real estate in a couple years, maybe I’ll decide, hey, I want to try to build a software business or I want to start a podcast or whatever, like build a nonprofit, what have you. But you also try to motivate yourself and you try to stay … I think even if you think about … You got to be doing stuff. So even if you think about Bill Gates, he’s accomplished so much, but if he just stopped and did nothing, he’d be like, has been. He has to write books and speak at conferences and otherwise it’s like, oh, it’s that guy that started Microsoft 40 years ago, but now he just lives in a nice house and We see him at the grocery store. So you got to do stuff. That’s what makes life worth living, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Where can people connect with you if someone wants to learn more? If someone’s in that multi-unit space and has more questions, where can people learn more about you? Where can people connect with you if anyone wants to reach out?

Yeah. So we have BNP Living, bnpliving.com. That’s our website. You can reach out to me directly. It’s mpresh, M-P-R-E-S-H@gmail.com. Happy to chat. Yeah, send me an email. Reach out to our site. Always happy to chat. And I try to make it out to some conferences pretty often so I can see people and so forth. But yeah, I’m a student of real estate, multifamily wisdom life. I think stuff like Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, all those kinds of books. I go to Barnes & Noble. I’m probably their favorite customer. I buy books. I don’t read all of them, but I like having them, so it just kind of feels good. And yeah, so I’m happy to chat any of these topics.

Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Any final advice for anyone looking to scale or grow or simplify their business potentially?

Final advice. Well, I’ll say this. This is my favorite mental model I’ll share before we go is I used to play poker. And so poker, probabilistic thinking. Annie Duke has a couple of books on these topics, but basically thinking and bets. So the way that I think about everything is kind of like a probabilistic model. And nothing is deterministic. Everything has a certain likelihood. And so every decision, everything basically, you can quickly assign a probability and kind of an expected value. And so that helps with decision making, rapid decision making and not being stuck with needing to reach a deterministic outcome. So being comfortable with, you might lose on this decision, but in the long run, if you make enough of these decisions, you’re going to win. And so as long as these decisions don’t kill you, you’re going to come on top, you’re going to do well. and so I think for me, probabilistic thinking has been kind of like the single most competitive advantage. And I think as it’s not an easy concept, but I think anybody can grasp it, but I think you need to practice it. And so for me, poker was where I started to get comfortable with like, if I have the best hand and I go all in and I lose, that’s the way it’s fine because in the long run you made the right decision. And so the same thing in real estate. If you know that it’s like, this is the right deal, this is right. And then you buy it and something very unpredictable happens, you made the right decision. You got to live with it and that’s okay. So probabilistic thinking I think is kind of my favorite mental model that I apply daily.

Awesome. Awesome. First off, thank you everyone for listening. Mike, thank you so much for coming on and look forward to seeing you next time.

Awesome. Thank you very much for having me. This was great. Appreciate you guys. Alrighty.