One of the biggest gaps I see when I work with a wholesaler or Flipper is they don’t have a unique selling proposition. Their USP is almost the same as every other Flipper wholesaler in the market. I can buy your house quickly, I can pay cash, and you don’t have any fees.That essentially is the value proposition for a house flip or a wholesaler buying off market from a seller. We look at the things that we can visually see easily, which is the aesthetic of the site. And I think all too often we care way too much about what we think about that aesthetic or our cousin Nancy, who’s a designer, she sees it and says, “There’s way too many words in this. No one’s ever going to read it.” I think there’s a lot that is to be said just about the simple fact that you built a life and you lived in a way that people actually want to spend time.

Welcome to the Real Estate Masters Podcast where we bring you the top real estate investors in the country. If you also want to be in the top 1%, you are in the right place. Listening to podcasts like this is exactly what helped me to scale my real estate investing business to seven figures, flip over a thousand houses, and more importantly, step out of daily operations of my business over a decade ago so I could start and grow other businesses. So get ready to learn from the best and start building a business that works for you and not the other way around. Enjoy.

Trevor, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you’ve been in the space for a long time. What would you attribute to all your success in real estate? If there was one thing you could attribute it to, what would that one thing be?

Dude, that’s a good question, man, because I could probably make a list of 20 and there’s probably one thing at each phase. But if I were to say one based off of just being in the business, I bought my first rental property, a four unit building in 2004 when I was 21 years old, and then software companies, done a bunch of wholesales with partners, all those things. I think the biggest thing, dude, is having a long-term mindset. It’s literally not thinking in six months, in a quarter, is this marketing campaign going to work for me in a month or a quarter? It’s literally, what are we doing a decade out? And I think that’s where a lot of people get in trouble is if something doesn’t work for them within three months, six months, or even a year, they give up. And I remember talking with some of the guys who’ve been in the industry for a long time with me, and we were talking about the ones who left the industry and struggle. And it’s like, man, it’s not that we haven’t had our struggles. It’s that you just know that they’re going to come in waves. There’s always the next struggle. There’s always a seasonal blessing, and we’re just going to be here for decades. That’s a mindset.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. What was your life like before investing? I know you got in super young, but what were you doing beforehand?

Yeah, dude. So going all the way back in that time, I didn’t know what I wanted to do, just like most younger people coming out of high school. I absolutely knew I did not want to be an entrepreneur though, which is the wild thing because I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. My dad and mom were both entrepreneurs out of necessity because my dad lost his job after the business he was a manager for, went out of business. And so then my mom started a business in our basement. And I remember customers, she was a wedding consultant. And so Our basement basically had secondhand shelves that she picked up at the Woolworths when they went out of business. And she had all this wedding kind of things. And she had a desk at the end of it and she would have consultations with brides. And that would be on Saturdays and Fridays. And then us kids would be packing chairs, tables, setting up tents on Fridays and tearing them down on Sundays. And that’s what it was like growing up. And then my dad started a business a few years later that was in the rental equipment business. So it’s like United Rentals kind of a thing. He ended up having three locations. We sold that business about a year ago to a big company. But it was 40 years of grind. And I remember, man, I’m like, if this is what entrepreneurship is where they’re working late nights, working weekends, we had a blessed life. We didn’t feel like we were in a spot where like, oh my gosh, this is terrible. This is what we knew growing up. But I go, “This seems like my dad and mom are trapped to their businesses. I don’t want that.” So that for me, dude, I got into college. I though I wanted to be a doctor. I took a health occupations class, got in an ER one time, saw one simple procedure, almost fainted. I’m like, “That doctor thing’s done.” And then I had a professor in college named Ari DeGrut. He passed away not too long ago. And he was an attorney and a real estate investor. But dude, he was in what should have been the most boring class in college. He was the most engaging professor. And he was talking about real estate and he was talking about things he was doing and he’s passionate about it. And I go, “I just want to do what he does because it seems like he’s pumped about it.” And I got 50% of that right. So I bought my first rental property in college, but I flunked out of the LSATs and couldn’t get into law school, thankfully. So that’s what it was like, man. I bought the first rental property. I thought I wanted a wholesale and flip after that. We moved to Portland and that’s where marketing came in. I learned how to market in that next one to two years because I told myself, no, this goes back to the sticking power. I told myself that I was not going to get a job for 12 months after that first year. I’m like, “I don’t know what I’m going to do. All my friends are getting good paying jobs.” I brought our average starting salary at Oregon Institute of Technology for that class down a bunch. I made $16,000 my first year. I went in $17,000 in credit card debt and I paid my taxes on my credit card that year. By that year I said, “I’m not going to give up. I’m not going to change course for 12 months. At 12 months, then I’ll make another 12-month contract with myself or I’ll go and get a job.” And so that’s what it was like, man, that first year. And then I finally figured out how to market towards the end of the year.

I love it. I love it. And then for the people listening, obviously, what does the business look like today?

Yeah. So I own a company called Karat, carrot.com. Man, we’re in our 11th year, 12th year now, which I’d never ran a business longer than three years ever before Karat. I was always a churn and burn guy, start a company, get bored of it in three years and do something else. We have dozens and dozens of full-time employees, millions of dollars a year in revenue, millions of profits. We have thousands and thousands of customers, four or 5,000 customers all around North America. And our clients dominate Google. You guys are a client. I know Tony is with his pro home buyer website. And we basically help people attract the most qualified and most hungry leads through the internet with our websites and CRM system.

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What was the main problem that you were trying to solve when starting Carrot? Dude,

So the biggest thing that I found, and this is way relevant for anybody starting their company. So if you guys are real estate investors, agents, home services, this is crazy important because one of the biggest gaps I see when I work with a wholesaler or flipper is they don’t have a unique selling proposition. Their USP is almost the same as every other flipper or wholesaler in the market. I can buy your house quickly. I can pay cash and you don’t have any fees.That essentially is the value proposition for a house flipper or a wholesaler buying off market from a seller. Now that is a value prop versus the standard traditional retail market that you’re going with the real estate agent. If you’re comparing those two, it is a fundamentally different value prop. But when you’re comparing two real estate investors who are buying off market, that is not a different value prop. It’s pretty much whoever can answer the phone the fastest and build the most trust at that point. So with Carrot, the problem that I saw after doing years of marketing and generating over a million leads in the real estate space myself during that prior five, six, seven years, I was working with a lot of real estate investors. I had discovered I really had a passion for marketing and I chose not to go and flip and wholesale myself. I said, “Man, I like the buy and hold thing.” I continue to buy and hold. We own properties downtown Roseburg, commercial properties, renovating the upstairs turn residential. I own apartment buildings. I own a part of a winery up in Portland, Oregon now. And so I’m a buy and hold guy. But I found for me, my active business, I enjoyed marketing. And so I took that marketing experience that I grew from 2008 through 2012, and I was working with real estate investors to help them get leads, private lender leads back then, sellers, buyers. And I kept finding that whenever people would say, “Hey, what should I do for my website?” Because that’s right when online leads were really starting to grow and become a lot more of a mainstream potential way to get in front of, in this case, a seller. And I just didn’t have anywhere to refer them. There were website companies that made websites for real estate investors. There were many of them. But knowing that I came from that background of generating a million plus leads and from a conversion rate optimization background, from a search engine optimization background, I’m like, “I know how to make things perform, but all the other solutions are not built that way. They get you online quick. They would give you 20 different design templates, but you’d put it up there. It would look kind of pretty, but it wouldn’t perform. It wouldn’t put money in your pocket.” And so that was my general thesis coming out, man. I go, “I didn’t have a solution to send my clients to.” And I just said, “Well, let me build it.” And so I made just a simple WordPress template at the start. This would’ve been 2011, 12. I literally just sent it to them. I’m like, “Cool. I paid my web guide. This is the format that’s going to convert for you because I’ve ran a million leads through it. Just go set it up.” And everyone would be like, “How do I do that? How do I do that?” I go, “Okay, pay me 50 bucks. I’ll put it on my WordPress reseller account over here. Just pay me 50 bucks and I’ll throw it up there.” And I did. And they started to get leads. I’m like, “This is the worst business model ever.”Because they paid me $50 one time and I’m still support for them. So I go, “Just 10 bucks a month. Second worst business model ever because now you don’t have enough money to actually pay for support or innovate that product.” So long story short, once we got to 2013 and I had these 100 plus people that had these free websites, basically I gave them just out of my kindness of my heart. I’m like, did you use these things? I got to a spot where I got overwhelmed in business. Noah, I had too many things going on because I had some success in one thing. It’s really easy for us to think that we can be successful in all the things. And so I started the second business and there’s the next opportunity that came and I stepped into that and I invested in another software company. And I was just getting burnt out, man. I had built myself into a business that I wanted to escape. I was doing a lot of things that drained my energy. I didn’t see this vision for how I could get out of it. I didn’t want to wake up and do the work in the business that I had created to give me freedom. It literally was a ball and chain that trapped me. And I started to think about getting a job. So this would have been 2011, 2012. And over the course of that next 12 months, I 10Xed my income backwards. I went from my personal net income around that time, mid 20 something year old guy, three to $400,000 a year. The very next year in 2012, my taxable income, I found the tax statement for it when we moved a handful of years ago in a box in our garage. I was $26,000. My net taxable income was 26 grand. I 10Xed it backwards because I trimmed all the things that weren’t giving me energy. And the only thing left, and here’s where the punchline is, the only thing left was these hundred websites. I was doing marketing consulting and there were these hundred websites that I wasn’t getting paid hardly anything for, but I had them on my server and I was getting ready to send them an email and say, “Hey, here’s all of your code back. Just go find a new place. Sorry, I can’t continue this free service basically.” And a guy walked into my office, a contractor, a guy that I know. And he said, “Trevor,” he goes, “Pull up my website,” pulled it up. And it was like a GoDaddy website. And he goes, “Why am I not ranking high in Google? And why am I not getting leads through that?” And I told him everything I knew like this, this, this, these exact reasons. He goes, “Can you do it for me?” I go, “No, man. I’m not in that business. I don’t have time. Can anyone in town do that?” “No. Literally, all the other web guys are going to make something pretty, but it’s not going to perform. “And he walked out of the office. I was sitting there getting ready to send this email to a hundred plus people to send their code back. And I was just going to wipe this late clean and start from scratch with some new business. And I saw that opportunity. I’m like,” Man, the real estate space, I know it. I know how to generate a lot of leads there. I know what works. There’s people that are coming at me saying they need help. Why don’t I just make a go of this and see if more people might need it? “And a lot of people needed it. So that’s where we are today. I

Love it. I love it. I love it. Why do you think so many investors overlook how crucial a good website can be?

Dude, it’s because they’re looking at the wrong thing. I mean, I did as well. We look at the things that we can visually see easily, which is the aesthetic of the site. And I think all too often we care way too much about what we think about that aesthetic. Or our cousin Nancy, who’s a designer, she sees it and says, there’s way too many words in this. No one’s ever going to read it. And so we’re using our opinions on something when we are not the customer. We’re not the motivated house seller. We’re not the person that needs to read that website. And so as I was diving in, and even still today, that is a challenge. Because the owner of the business, you guys want a website you’re proud of. You want a website that reflects your brand. And so that’s the biggest problem is they’re looking at prettiness, not performance. And that’s not a new thing. I’ve been saying this for 10, 15 years. But I think that as technology changes, it’s easier to get a little bit of both. As some other things change, it’s easier to make a website that loads insanely fast. Ours are definitely the fastest in the market by far, especially with our new website platform we launched in January. We need to get you guys over that actually. We need to get Tony’s pro home buyer. I’m going to reach out to him and get his move over to the new platform. It’s crazy fast. But that’s the biggest thing, man, is they don’t realize in this industry where you’re closing, let’s say one in 10 deals or one in 20 leads into a deal with online marketing or with TV. So if you’re running TV ads through 10X TV, and depending on the market, you might be getting about one in 20 to one in 40 of those leads into a deal potentially. Maybe more, depending on how much that person has really built that presence in TV or with billboards. And so when you look at that and your average profitable deal, let’s say it’s 25K, if you build a website that looks pretty or you’re trying to cheapen it out by going this way or throwing something up with Claude because you can visually go, “That looks great. It kind of looks like a carrot site.” We see people coming over from Claude and custom sites every single week because of performance, because you lose one deal, that’s $25,000. That’s the biggest thing, man, is forgetting the long-term aim is to put more money in your pocket, not to win a design award.

What’s the biggest misconception that you get from investors about your offer?

Dude, so there’s two. And this is something that honestly, as we got 10 years into the business, there’s a couple things that we didn’t miss, but we didn’t pay attention to them as much as we in hindsight should have. So one of them is design. Were we so over-indexed on performance, conversion rate optimization, SEO optimization. And at one point, our websites controlled almost 60% of all page one results in Google across the top three motivated house seller search phrases across every MSA in America and Canada. So 60% of all of the organic results were carrot sites. No company’s ever done that in any industry like this. And so while our clients controlled it, we under-indexed how much people cared about the difference of their design versus their competitor. And so that is a misconception is all carrot sites look the same. Now, I would say a lot do because the client didn’t go and customize it very much. So you have this push and pull of, “Oh my gosh, Karat obviously works for performance. I can see it with my eyes. There’s no debating the data’s out there, but I want it to look different. I’m the biggest in my marketer. I’ve been here for 10 years. I don’t want to look like the guy who just set one up last week.” So that’s real. And that’s something we dove deep into the last part of last year. We just said we’re going to completely eliminate this once and for all. And we built our new website platform that gives a lot more design flexibility. And we could show you guys sites today like Jason Pritchard in California, big TV guy. And does amazing with his TV, does amazing with his offline. Be a carrot customer for a long time. But he built a custom site because he was coming up with the new brand Pinnacle Home Buyers. And he has a Karat site that’s been ranking number one at Google in the Fresno market for eight years, but he hasn’t changed it. And it’s pretty ugly. It is. It’s an eight year old website that hasn’t really been changed, but it’s still ranking number one in Google and gets him a lot of deals. But he’s going, “Man, I’m rebranding the company. I’m going to keep that there, but I must need to go off of carat to build a custom site to make that happen.” So he did. He dropped thousands of dollars, a web designer. It looked pretty. But when we pulled it up in the page speed test, it was in the 30s on mobile. It was loading in almost over eight seconds on mobile. And then on the desktop side, it was in the 50s or 60s on Google Page speed score. It was loading like seven seconds. And every second that your website loads slower is about a half a percent in conversion rate decrease beyond about two seconds in page speed. And then on the AI SEO side of things. So with ChatGPT, that lead source is growing. Google AI overviews, more leads are coming through there down than ever before. Page speed matters in AI SEO. We found a study where your website’s 30% more likely to be mentioned or your business is 30% more likely to be mentioned in AISEO if your website loads in under two seconds on desktop. So that’s a big usage. Jason came over, we took it up to 99 desktop. I think it’s 95, 96 mobile. Everything’s loading in under two and a half seconds. And he’s like, “Dude, I’m moving everything over.” And we made it look exactly like his custom site. Better performance, better ease, lower cost, putting more money in his pocket and he gets his custom look and feel. So that’s the number one is design.

I love it. I love it. The word success to me is very intriguing. Everyone defines it differently, measures it differently, strives for it differently. How do you define the word success? How do you measure it? And then how do you strive for it day to day?

Dude, it’s a completely different answer today than it would’ve been 20 years ago. I think 20 years ago it would’ve been very professional focused, very business focused. I’ve got three kids. They’re 11, 13, and 15. And tomorrow we’re getting ready to go to a sheep show. They show sheep for 4-H and we travel all around Oregon with their sheep. And dude, for me, success is that in a year, tomorrow, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, my kids want to hang out with me. I did the right thing as a dad to be able to be the type of person who they are proud of, the type of person they actually want to spend time with. I know people, as do a lot of people listening to this, and maybe people listening to this are living in a situation themselves like this where they don’t want to hang out with their parent or their brother or their sister or whatever. And I think there’s a lot that is to be said just about the simple fact that you built a life and you lived in a way that people actually want to spend time with you. So that for me is a big deal. Now there’s a lot of things under the layer of that. I think part of it, what we get to do in business and work, business and work is just a vehicle to do three things. And they help influence that thing that I just mentioned there of how my kids actually want to hang out with me. Business should do three things. Business should, number one, give you work that interests and energizes you. So if I have a business, Noah, like I did 15 years ago that caused me to be burnt out and that caused me to wipe the slate clean, 10X my income backwards and clear the deck for something that became carrot because it enabled me to have a bigger vision. If I would have stayed in that world, imagine what kind of dad I would be, husband I would be, friend I would be, son I would be. If I came home every day with no energy in the tank. I had money in the bank, no energy in the tank. If I would come home and no one wanted to hang out with me, if I was tired, if I was wore out, if I was snippy, if I was short tempered, I would not be able to live that life that I would want to because my business sucked it out of me. That’s the first thing is our business should give us and our work should give us work that interests us. You don’t have to be passionate about it. It should interest you. You can have a passion for mountain bike riding or fly fishing or whatever. You don’t have to build your business around your passion, but you should make your business and your work interesting. You want to solve the problems that you’re waking up to go solve and do it for the people that you get to serve. And then it should energize you more often than not. And my rule is 80%, 80 / 20. If 80% of my work week and my workday did not give me more energy, then when I started, then there’s something wrong. I’ve got a process called the energy audit. I created in 2012 when I was going through that challenging season. I still do it today every quarter. I teach my coaching clients in my Epic program that audit and it changed my life. It moved me from 80% energy during to 80% energy gift. So the second thing, Noah, is your business should fund your vision. It should fund your vision, meaning you should have some sort of clarity in what that vision is. And you should sit down. I’ve got a process called Security Comfort Luxury that I teach my coaching clients in my Epic program as well. And we sit down and we don’t just create a freedom number. We literally write down what life do you want to have in that vision? And then we break it down to a security version of that life. Meaning this might not be your dream life, but we’re going to lock in the security version so you can create a moat around that that creates more peace. And then we’re going to move up the lifestyle a little bit with comfort, a little bit with luxury. And as we go, we’re just going to grab into that next level and create a moat around that level that we’re in now so we don’t lose it. We know a lot of people, I guarantee you know people in this industry who are making millions of dollars and then they lost it all four years later because they made a bunch of money. They started to spend at the luxury lifestyle with debt. They didn’t lock in this moat behind them and then everything came crumbling down. So we should have clarity of the vision of the life and our business should fund it. It shouldn’t overfund it, shouldn’t underfund it. I see a lot of people overfunding their vision because of ego, because of keeping up with the Joneses, because they’re going to masterminds and that guy’s doing more deals. So I must need to do more deals because people say that the quote of, if you’re not growing, you’re dying. I think that there is truth to that, but there’s six ways to grow in life, not one. It’s not all financial growth. You can grow in your faith, you can grow in your friendships with your friends, you can grow in your relationships with your family. You can grow in your fitness and your health. You can grow in your fun and hobbies and you can grow in your finances. But I think all too often we think that we’ve got to keep building these businesses because everyone else is, but then the other five buckets of our life are struggling. So we need to balance it. So third one now, and I’ll toss it back to you, is our work should also help us create an impact that we’re proud of. That not only do we get to do work, the interest and energizes us more often than not. We have clarity in where we’re going and that income funds that vision for us. But then the last part is that we’re not just showing up to make a check and to feel good ourselves. We’re out to actually do something that matters, that helps people. And it can help the people right around you. Your team, your customers, that’s the people right around you, your family. But then you can expand it out from that. You can help your community, literally the people in your community that you live after you’ve really served and help the impact the people right around you. And then after you’ve figured out what you want to serve in your community, then you can look at the macro, the industry, the world, whatever that is to you. But dude, those three things, man, work that interest and energizes you, should fund your vision, and it should create an impact you’re proud of. So going back to all that, if I can make my business do those things, I’m a much better dad, husband, father, friend, the whole thing.

I love it. I love it. Let’s say the business completely goes away. You get to keep all the knowledge that you’ve learned over the years about the business, the rentals, everything goes away. If you were going to start from scratch and rebuild what you have now, what would you focus on first?

Yeah, dude, this is what I would focus on. I’m not saying this is the right path, but I’ve always had a lot of success with this. So we had an event down in Scottsdale, Arizona about a month ago. Event for some carrot members and an event for my Epic coaching program. And I had a little panel there. Pace Morby, Steve Trang, Brent Daniels, and then Steve Harward with Prime Corporate Services. So Steve’s got a business, $150 million business. When we were talking and had this little panel in front of our group of 30 coaching clients, the thing that Steve mentioned, it reminded me of the principal I’m going to tell you that I would go back to, is he’s like, “Dude, I don’t know how I built $150 million your company. He has two jets. He seems to have a pretty good life. I don’t know him personally, but for me, I’ll sit in. There’s a lot of cool things there.” And everyone was asking him, “How’s he doing?” He goes, “Dude, I did it the opposite way that most people tell you to do it.” He goes, “I just get deep and I build relationships. I add so much value to those relationships for free. I just do and I do and I give and I give and I give. And then it just wild things come back to me.” So that’s the very first thing I would do. I would go, number one, what’s a skill that I have that I did retain that can add value to somebody? Number two, every single day I’d write down or I’d go find five people to reach out to. Text messages. If I got to keep a Rolodex, or if not, I would go find people online. I would do text messages or DMs and literally just offer to do work for free. I wouldn’t try to pitch something. I wouldn’t try to create this magical offer. Maybe that’s a slow route. There’s other people who could probably do it faster than me, but I would just do things for free. The more value you build, pretty quickly, you actually build trust and then people want to pay you for things. And so I would find one problem to solve. I would find the little tiny market that I know I can solve well. And I would message five to 10 people every single day, showing them the thing that is wrong, offering to do it for them for free with no catch, and just doing it. Out of that’s going to come some pretty cool relationships. And I think long-term things are going to grow bigger and faster long-term, but they’re going to grow shorter or they’re going to grow slower probably in the near term.

100%. I love it. I love it. If someone’s interested in reaching out to you, if someone is listening to this and they could use a better site, where can they go to connect with you guys? Where can they go to maybe talk to the team and see if Karat’s the right fit for them?

Dude, for sure. Yeah, just carrot.com. You can check us out there. There’s a little video demo online. You can hit me up on Instagram or Facebook, just Trevor Mauch, M-A-U-C-H. But I’m going to toss out this weird answer for you here. Everybody on this call knows you can go to Claudecode, you can go to Vercel, you can go to one of those AI tools and build a website. You can build a CRM. You can have it come up with TV ads for you. You can have it come up with TV ad strategy. You can have it come up with all kinds of things. There’s not a lack of things that people can do with AI today. And the reason I’m bringing this up is that is an option for both my business and your guys’ business. But why is it that we exist? We exist because you guys have so much data in the market around TV. You guys have so much experience in the market around TV. AI doesn’t have any of that. It might have some things that it presents a good looking strategy. And from the outside in, like I was saying before, it looks aesthetically good. Man, that looks thorough and AI is confident on this thing. That must be the strategy. I’m going to save some bucks and not go with 10X TV. What happens though, because I’ve seen that happen in my coaching program where people did not work with you guys and they tried to go it alone, is they end up blowing 20, 30, 40, $50,000 in TV ad spend. They come out with no deals and they go, “TV doesn’t work.” And I said, “Well, why didn’t you work with 10X TV?” “Well, they didn’t work with you guys because there was an upfront cost. “I go,” Well, you either pay upfront for the expertise and get the long-term value, or you end up paying massively 10 times more over the long term. It’s the same thing with us on the website side. We’ve got a bigger data set than anybody in the world around motivated health seller leads through the internet. We’re doing more testing than anybody in the world on what converts, what makes things rank in AI SEO, what makes things rank with SEO. AI is going to give you a confident answer. It’s going to give you something that looks good aesthetically and outside of it’s missing the horsepower in the back. And we see people coming over, big guys coming over every single week because they tried that. Aesthetically, it looks great. They’re celebrating day one. They’re doing the AI build flex, the code flex on IG or whatever, go, “Man, look at all this code I’m pushing because it looks cool.” But then 80% of what we end up building doesn’t get used on AI. And then most people can get things 80% of the way, but it’s that last 20% that actually gives you the results and puts money in your pocket. So I want to give everyone that answer because AI is an answer, but it’s not AI or Cara, AI or 10XTV. The answer is AI and those, right? We are using AI automatically to build your guys’ content, your websites. We have AI generated designs coming out here soon, we have AI tools built in, you get the benefit of the data set, the experience, and we handle the platform so you don’t have to. Same thing with 10xTV guys. So even though AI is smart, it’s way overconfident in spots where I’m seeing it drop the ball for people every single day. We help you not drop the ball and put more money in your pocket.

I love it. Boom. Mic drop. Trevor, thank you so much for taking the time. Everyone, thanks for watching and we’ll see

You next time. Yep. Appreciate you guys.